sidearms during WWII

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A little after WWII my father-in-law flew in B-29's bombing North Korea. By the time he started flying missions the mistreatment of American POW's was well known so his crew took a vow never to be taken prisoner. He said he carried a 1911, a 38 revolver (Victory Model maybe?) and a Grease Gun with extra stick magazines stuck in the tops of his flying boots.
 
The personal stories are really the highlight of this thread.

My own father was a flight engineer in the RAF but was on detached service to an RCAF squadron flying bombers. He never said a word about any sort of handguns for the aircrew so I suspect that they went without. The couple of pictures of him and the rest of his crew showed no sign of any personal arms either.

But then the Germans handled prisoner captures much more differently, for the most part, than the Japanese.
 
I know several guys who were tankers in Desert Shield/Desert Storm who were issued M3 and M3A1 Grease Guns. One guy said it was the "funnest" gun he had ever shot :).

To keep this thread related, my Great Uncle (Sergeant, WWII Army Infantry, unit unknown) carried a .38 S&W Victory Model revolver that was "picked up in the field". When he promoted and transferred to a different unit, he passed it down to his Corporal.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
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My Dad told me they could buy their 45s when they mustered out after WWII for 2 bucks.
He said he'd been carrying the thing since early 1942 all over hell in the Pacific and was glad to get rid of it. :)
 
Hi, Lone Star,

You wrote: "The post by Jim K about company grade officers not getting pistols is just incorrect. They were normally issued a .45 AND a carbine."

I wonder which TOE you used for that statement. No WWII era ones I have seen show pistol issue to any company grade officers (2LT, 1LT or CPT). Obviously some carried them and in wartime they do get "picked up", but not officially. In my signal company, our pistols were supposed to be carried by the photographers, who had to lug a heavy Speed Graphic as well as a weapon. That was the TOE theory. In the real world, the company commander outranked the photogs, so he and the XO and the other officers got the pistols and the shutterbugs got carbines.

Jim
 
My Dad was a BAR man in the 76th Infantry Division in Europe. He was not issuesd a sidearm and said he wouldn't have wanted to carry it because he was already so loaded down the the BAR and the bandoliers of ammo. He was big (for 1944) at 5'11" and usually the big guys got the BARs.
 
In combat, all the ground pounder officers worth following and risking your life for were carrying a rifle I betcha.

Combat tends to shake out the officers from the real officers who you respect enough to follow into hell and back.

rc
 
You guys need to read, "With the Old Breed" by Sledge.

They used their .45s, and I'm not talking about officers.

And while you are at it, read "Brennan's War", by Mathew Brennan and his other books, "Hunter Killer Squadron: Aero-weapons, Aero-scouts, Aero-rifles, Vietnam, ".

They carried at least one handgun each. I think Brennen carried, besides his rifle, a 1911 and a .38 revolver.

Rifles jam. Machineguns jam. Both run out off ammo. Both can be damaged by gunfire.

And of course, a certain Sargent named York once used his 1911 (his main gun was a 1917 Enfield) to stop seven charging Germans who had fixed bayonets.

Deaf
 
Jim K-

I don't doubt your personal experience, but when was it? I've never seen a photo of a WW II US officer in a combat zone who didn't wear a pistol. There are many references to them.

The late Col. Chas. Askins said that every officer he saw had a sidearm, although many weren't proficient with them. He usually carried his own Colt New Service .38. Used a rifle to kill at least a couple of Germans.

The only generals whom I ever saw a photo of carrying a rifle were Brigadier Orde Wingate of Chindit fame (he was British; it was a No. 4 Enfield) and James Gavin, who commanded the 82nd Airborne. Other officers had just sidearms or a .45 and a carbine or Thompson. Brevet Brig. John Masters, D.S.O., had a US .30 carbine in the Burmese jungle, but he also mentioned using his revolver. Again, he was British.

I don't doubt that other officers acquired rifles and may have used them. Just don't see much mention of it, or period photos. Oh: saw Col. Darby, who founded the Rangers, with a Springfield in a leather boot on a motorcycle. I bet he knew how to use it, too.
 
Medics that weren't C.O.s had them too. The pistol is considered a "personal defense weapon" not an offensive weapon. Those who were "non combatants" had, or could have them.
 
Any Infantry unit has extra rifles and back in the days of 1911s a few extra of those. M9s did not have spares. The reason for the spares were to replace broken weapons sent in for maintenance. When we went to Iraq there were all these officers who suddenly felt a need for a rifle but HHC did not have enough spares available. A deal was made between companies and M9s were swapped for M16s and entries were made on the property books so no one could renege on the swaps. As a result all our machine gunners had M9s.
 
My father acquired a 1911 sometime after arriving in New Guinea. I don't believe he was ever issued a weapon. A lifelong hunter, shooter and former state trooper, as late as last year he was still complaining about the hammer bite. :) He shot my Colt WWI Repro a few times, but never trusted the hammer.

He enlisted in the Army at the beginning of the war and was sent to flight school where he soon ruptured both ear drums. That was the great disappointment of his life I believe.

The Air Corps then sent him to college for a year in the midwest to study electrical and radar theory and such, etc. and shipped him off as a Tech. Sgt. to the 13th (Jungle) Air Force. They island hopped from New Guinea to the Philippines and at the end of the war he took a slow boat home. They were searched before boarding.

Before he got on the ship he tried to trade his worn flight jacket for a new one, but the armed guards would not allow it. See, they had this pile of stuff they were going to burn. He said it was the size of a barn and they were starting other piles to destroy. There were weapons, new clothes, all sorts of good equipment. He only wanted to a do a straight trade. Nope.

Back in the states they offered him a promotion to Staff Sgt. and tried to assign him to the Pentagon for some oddball reason. He declined the promotion so a guy who wanted a military career could have it and he went home to the family orchard in the Blue Ridge south of Charlottesville. He'd been in for 4 years and 29 days.

John


www.13af.pacaf.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=9224

"Originally activated as 13th AF at New Caledonia in the Coral Sea on Jan. 13, 1943, the command began operations as an organization composed of many widely separated and independent units scattered throughout the Pacific. From 1943 to 1945, the 13th AF staged from tropical jungles on more than 40 remote islands, earning the nickname "The Jungle Air Force." "
 
Not sure it it's on topic for this thread but I read a book about a German family that lived through WWII and in the last chapter the author mentions that at the end of the war the Wermacht abandoned entire box cars loaded w/ various weapons which were then looted by displaced persons and Germans. I wonder how many of those MP40s and Lugers are quietly sitting in someone's attic in Germany today.
 
Did anyone ever read The Pistol, a novella by James Jones (From Here to Eternity)? It's been ages since I did, but I recall that the central theme is the virtually shamanistic awe which everyone has for a 1911 .45 in the possession of one of the characters. Again, IIRC, the .45 pistol was perceived by the principals as the only defense against a determined banzai attack by a Japanese soldier in the dense jungle fighting of Guadalcanal and similar regions. It literally represented the chance at life for the characters, and conflict ensued from a number of them trying to gain possession of the handgun.


.
 
Not sure it it's on topic for this thread but I read a book about a German family that lived through WWII and in the last chapter the author mentions that at the end of the war the Wermacht abandoned entire box cars loaded w/ various weapons which were then looted by displaced persons and Germans. I wonder how many of those MP40s and Lugers are quietly sitting in someone's attic in Germany today.
Click to expand...

If I had a time machine....
 
The TOE gave handguns to enlisted men that had to carry other heavy stuff besides a rifle, or were in the rear with the gear.

This is what determines who gets what issued. Who's carrying what can and usually is a different issue.

I understand in WWI handguns were issued liberally due they handiness in trench fighting. This is one of the reasons S&W and Colt made the 1917 revolvers as only so many 1911s could be cranked out. A friends father served in WWI and according to him when he got back to the US they were told if they wanted to keep there handgun they could. About half the handguns used by the military in WWI went home this way according to one source.

Things were different in WWII but as always if a GI wanted a pistol he could find one somewhere. I've read in Airborne and Ranger units Officers and NCOs were given a choice of a M1, M1 carbine, or Thompson (or M3 grease gun) and a pistol. Some chose not to carry the pistol. General gavin was knwon for carrying only a M1 and in Band of Brothers Dick Winters relates on how he lost his M1 during the jump and wound up picking up a Mauser from a dead German.

Vietnam saw the widespread use of the helicopter and the Army bought S&W Model 10s for its aircrews as there wasn't enough 1911s to go around. I saw guys carrying everything from Iver Johnson and H&R 22s to Ruger Blackhawks and S&W Model 19s that they brought over. They didn't pay much attention to what guys brought incountry just what you brought out. YOu couldn't take any US made weapon as a war trophy. As a result there was a lot of personally owned weapons left there and sold or traded off. You were pretty much screwed for ammo if what you had didn't shoot 45 ACP or 38 Special as that's what the us stocked. As far as "getting away with it" most commanders in the field didn't care. I knew one guy who carried a 357 Blackhawk in a cowboy rig. However, if you went to the rear you had to hide it unless it was a 1911.
 
Another thought I had was.

A guy waving a pistol around in combat is a snipers wet dream.

It is Sniper 101 to shoot officers whenever possible.

And a guy leading the charge with no rifle is most likely an officer.

rc
 
My Grandfather on my moms side was in Korea. He was issued a 1911. He started off as Airborne, ended up as a cook.

My step dads father was a B-17 gunner, and carried the 1911 also.
 
A guy waving a pistol around in combat is a snipers wet dream.

It is Sniper 101 to shoot officers whenever possible.

And a guy leading the charge with no rifle is most likely an officer.

True rc. That's why the platoon leader often asked the new guy "hey you wanna carry my pistol". Army officers could always get a M14 or M16 in Vietnam. It seems to me that Marine officers were issued a 1911 and they didn't have extra rifles to hand out. I saw Marine officers that managed to find a rifle or have someone get them a shotgun on R&R in Hawaii.
 
My step dad was a US Army Airborne Ranger Battalion Commander (specific unit escapes me at the moment), but he asked his supply sergeant to acquire him a 12 gauge shotgun. He walked into his office one morning and a Rem 870 sat upon his desk. He never did find out where his sergeant got that shotgun.

He served from VN to Grenada, and was involved in pretty much everything in between, even a couple banana wars we supposedly never had any involvement in.
 
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