Sierra Times: We Want Our Rifles Back!

[EOD Guy]

alan,

What the military did was to issue most M14 rifles configured as semi-automatic by removing the selector switch. The kits to restore the rifles were issued with the rifles but were kept in the unit arms room for use if needed and approved by military authorities. The seven (?) weld process was proposed by the Army for converting rifles to semi auto for release through the DCM for competition. The program was cancelled for political reasons (RFK and MLK assassinations) and never reinstated. Also, the BATF never approved the conversion.

My sources are personal experience, discussions with people in military marksmanship programs and some that are involved in the CMP. I have also seen a couple of articles and an Army Regulation concerning the proposed release through the DCM.

 

[alan]

EOD:

Re your reference to the shooting of JFK and MLK, they were shot with BOLT ACTION RIFLES, no? Isn't the gutlessness of our political types truly amazing?? As to "not approved by the BATF", like naughty children given a can of gasoline and matches, would they know the difference.

Once upon a time, when I used to shoot rifles at Camp Perry, one year I wandered out there to shot the NTT and some team matches, part of The Nationals. I was issued an M-14 Rifle at Erie Ordinance Depot, just past the far and of the Vale Range, the western most range at Perry.

This rifle had no selector switch on it, and interestingly, as I recall, there was a port at the right rear of the action, just aft of the reward most point of op rod travel. It appeared that this port was filled with weld material. I didn't take the rifle down, so I cannot say what else might have been done to the thing, re mode of fire. It shot straighter than I could hold.

Thanks for your input.

Re proposed legislation, the claimed good endings that would be obtained given proper operation/enforcement of some particular law, must be viewed against the context of the very bad endings obtained as a result of improper operation/enforcement of that same legislation. Also, overly broad grants of power and or authority, sooner or later, are directed against the grantor, by the grantee.

 

[Brian Dale]

EOD Guy,

Second, the M14 is still a currently issued rifle and there is no surplus. The military can't meet their current needs with available stocks.

What happened to all of them? Have they just been worn out and used up over the past 40 years?

 

[alan]

In a manner seemingly typical of this nations government, and it's bureaucracy, it appears that significant numbers of M-14 Rifles were sold/given to some of our alleged allies in Europe. References to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia or some of these comes to mind. Supposedly some have been provided to domestic Law Enforcement, I do not know how many. Finally, and I could be wrong here, some number of them were "fed to Captain Crunch", a destruction device, which I believe was located at Anniston Army Dept., Anniston Alabama. It is my understanding that significant numbers of other firearms were utilized as "feed" for this animal too.

In any event NONE were ever sold to civilians, due to the fact that Treasury Dept (BATF) claimed that they were "machineguns", even they they supposedly, and there is some question re this, had been modified to remove this capability.

 

[Sergeant Bob]

alan

References to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia or some of these comes to mind.

Are these the references you're thinking about? There were also about 120,000 sent to the Balkans.

Sergeant Bob

Estonia 9 Jan 40,500 M14 rifles; 1,328,300 7.62mm ball ammo; 1,000,000 7.62mm blank ammo; 81,219 7.62mm tracer ammo

Lithuania 9 Jan 40,000 M14 rifles; 500,000 7.62mm blank ammunition; 1,500,000 7.62mm ball ammunition- EDA Army free

Arms Sales Monitor No. 37 (10 April 1998)

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Correction to my aboove post, it's the Baltics, not the Balkans.

Around 1995, largescale grants and sales of small/light arms began occurring (see appendix 2). In the past few years (1995-early 1998), over 300,000 rifles, pistols, machine guns and grenade launchers have been offered up, including:

---158,000 M16A1 assault rifles (principally to Bosnia, Israel, Philippines)

---124,815 M14 rifles (principally to the Baltics and Taiwan)

U.S. Policy on Small/Light Arms Exports

 

[jimpeel]

There has never been an assassination, or an assassination attempt, perpetrated through the use of a semi-auto weapon in the United States.

Andrew Jackson attempt, Flintlock handgun
Lincoln, percussion handgun
Garfield, percussion handgun
McKinley, revolver
T. Roosevelt attempt, revolver
F. Roosevelt attempt, revolver
Truman attempt, revolver
J. Kennedy attempt, explosives
J. Kennedy, bolt-action rifle
R. Kennedy, revolver
King, bolt-action rifle
Lee Harvey Oswald, revolver
Ford attempt Fromme, revolver
Ford attempt Moore, revolver
Reagan attempt, revolver

If one wants to count Malcolm X, there has been. He was shot with a shotgun, .45 auto, and 9mm.

 

[Brian Dale]

Thanks, Alan and Sergeant Bob; that's a tenth of 'em. Do you give these examples as representative of a pattern? Were we also sending them to the RVN and Thailand, Israel and Egypt, Greece and Turkey, and elsewhere?

The web site for the Springfield Armory National Historic Site (the Government arsenal, not the present-day company with the rights to the name) shows almost 1.4 million M14s manufactured between 1958 and 1964.

http://www.nps.gov/spar/pphtml/newseventsdetail5027.html

I gotta bad feeling about this "Captain Crunch" that you mention.

{Edited to change typo - "1.4 M14s" to "1.4 million M14s" - Sgt. Bob understood the correct number}

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Do you give these examples as representative of a pattern?

Yep, I figured there had to be alot more than that made, but didn't realize there were that many!. The examples I gave were from two mutually exclusive sites, with different listings on each. It would take alot more digging to find out where the rest are. I also wonder how many have been destroyed (cut up or crushed). I think there was a flap about some company rewelding the receivers and selling them a while back?

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Did some more searching and found this letter to Congressman Tom Lantos of Ca. Don't know how accurate the facts are, but the numbers add up and it would explain the disappearance of alot of M-14's.

The Honorable Tom Lantos
400 South El Camino Real
Suite 410
San Mateo, CA 94402

2002-10-29

Congressman Lantos,
One of the most prized American skills is rifle marksmanship. The Civilian Marksmanship Program, an independent federally-chartered corporation, was created in 1916 to encourage recreational shooting sports at the national level. The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 made the CMP a separate entity, having been administered previously by the U.S. Army. Currently the CMP sells World War II-era M1 Garand rifles and ammunition to the general public at low cost, enabling interested Americans to participate in the shooting sports.
The M14 rifle, adopted for military service in 1957, was produced until 1965 when the current M16 became standard. The M14 is essentially a significantly improved M1 Garand, and remains extremely popular with proficient target shooters and outdoors enthusiasts nationwide. Over 1.3 million M14 rifles were produced by several manufacturers under government contract. The problem is that over 750,000 of these fine rifles have been destroyed in the last 20 years at significant cost to the government, purportedly to reduce storage costs at military depots around the world. Over 450,000 M14 rifles have been given to other countries at bargain prices. Currently, the only M14-type rifles in production are manufactured by private armories at a retail cost of over $1000 for each unit; only about 150,000 M14 clones exist today in the hands of private citizens.
I request, and would be willing to draft, legislation to enable the Civilian Marksmanship Program to sell semi-automatic M14 rifles to the public under its current system for selling M1 Garand rifles to the public. In light of California's Assault Weapons Control Act and our state's prohibition on the new sales of AR-15 type rifles, which are popular in marksmanship contests, the sale of surplus M14 rifles under certain conditions would be legal in our state and would be a godsend to California citizens. Instead of sitting in storage, the approximately 170,000 surplus M14 rifles remaining could greatly contribute to American marksmanship and outdoor enthusiasts everywhere. I advocate enabling legislation to allow the Civilian Marksmanship Program to sell all remaining surplus M14 rifles in U.S. inventory-- at no cost to the government. Please contact me if you have questions about the issue, or to open a dialogue on the situation. I also would like to thank you for your support of the Armed Pilots initiative under current consideration in Congress.

http://www.awatters.com/m1a/lantos.html

 

[alan]

Sergeant Bob:

The letter to Rep. Lantos, a man who as I recall, immigrated to this country from Europe, where he have lived in a country that labored under Communist (Russian) domination, especially respecting the following excerpts: "The problem is that over 750,000 of these fine rifles have been destroyed in the last 20 years at significant cost to the government, purportedly to reduce storage costs at military depots around the world. Over 450,000 M14 rifles have been given to other countries at bargain prices. Currently, the only M14-type rifles in production are manufactured by private armories at a retail cost of over $1000 for each unit; only about 150,000 M14 clones exist today in the hands of private citizens.", is quite interesting. Unfortunately, given that, at least as I recall, Lantos was big on gun control, the effort might have been a waste of time.

In any case, the 750,000 M-14 Rifles mentioned that were "destroyed", should be spelled as follows. They became fodder for Captain Crunch, as the large stamping press was known, a press that that paid for out of PUBLIC MONEYS, operated at PUBLIC EXPENSE, and used in the most questionable of manners, TO DESTROY VALUABLE PUBLIC PROPERTY. Someone, actually several people should have been jailed over this, but alas, that never happened.

As to the 450,000 that were "given or sold" to other countries, that disposition MIGHT have been legitimate and or worthwhile, or at least possessed of SOME MERIT, who knows. Supposeldy, some were given or sold to domestic Law Enforcement, to which the above considerations might also apply.

By the bye, undoubtedly, some were lost in action, the M-14 Rifle was used during the Vietnam period, especially be the USMC, until they were ordered, in writing, to turn in the M-14's they had, exchanging them for the M-16, about which enough has been said. Army units also used them during the Vietnam period.

Anyhow, earlier posts in this discussion have stated that the M-14 Rifle is still an item of military issue, if I got that straight. There does seem to be some question concerning the whereabouts of .1 to .2 million of the things, which is curious in view of the fact that earlier posts in this discussion also stated, as I recall, that at present, existing military needs for this weapon cannot be met from quantities currently available in government/military inventories.

In my view, this situation, if correctly described, raises the following question. What the hell happened here, or exactly who was it that so obviously "screwed the pooch" re logistics and supply?

Anyone have any answer, or feel that such questions have already been answered, please let me know.

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Here's a guy who's trying to mount a campaign to bring M-14's to the DCM. Don't know how well it's doing but it's a good idea nonetheless. I know it's stuff we already know, but I like the one minute letter idea. Quality and quantity, and it speaks of something legiscritters understand...... money.

Fred's Articles

How to Get an M14 Program


1. Find out the names and addresses - and telephone numbers - of your Federal [and State and Local] Representatives. Call the reference desk at your local library to find them out - and keep them where you can get to them easily!

2. Write or call your representatives in Congress (and the Statehouse) with a "one minute" letter or phone call (see below).

3. Get the message to others about how easy it is to be effective in promoting a DCM M14 program. This is crucial. Only if you get your gun-owning friends involved will you make the real difference that we need to make.

4. YOU should DO MORE: Sign up with NRA-ILA Grassroots (1-800-392-8683). Get ready for the next election - get registered, get your friends motivated, KNOW who to vote for nationally and for the statehouse. Get active! The only thing you have to lose is your freedom! What you have to win is an M14!

Ignore your gun rights --- and they'll go away!

What to Say in Your One-Minute Letter or Phone Call

Dear Sir:
I am strongly for a semiautomatic M14 program through the DCM. This would result in hundreds of millions saved to reduce the deficit. All my friends feel the same way, but they are too lazy to write - but they do vote.


Sincerely,
_________

Do not copy the above example exactly - use your own words to get the point across, or take the examples below and use different parts of each. Remember, a "one-minute" letter gets the point across to your representative just as effectively as a three page letter: he knows your position, he knows how you feel, he knows how you want him to vote, and he knows you are a voter who is watching him.

Other Sample Letters (Pick any one, or combine different ones):I not only want you to vote against any bill which includes gun control;

I want you to be "pro-active" in Congress and help us get an M14 DCM program. If the problem is the deficit, why is our government throwing away hundreds of millions of dollars by destroying M14 rifles - some of which are brand new!? Quit wasting taxpayer money and allow the sale of semi-auto M14s through DCM - up to 300-600 million realized in DEFICIT REDUCTION Remember to always be polite in making your points. Treat your reps with consideration - like they are humans - and you will get a lot farther. Remember further - they are YOUR rights, and the price of liberty is eternal vigilance (Translation: "You snooze - you lose"). Join RGC - purchase M1 & M14 parts from DCM. Qualify to purchase an M1 Garand! Send a $20 check payable to "RGC" for membership card, info packet, and ordering forms. Last, and NOT least, get the word out! Your friends and shooting buddies need to know about our program - that gun owners are organizing and will not be pushed around anymore. This year, make a difference - and get ready to send them a message in the next election!

Don't Talk About it! Do It! Protect Your Firearms Heritage. WRITE A "ONE-MINUTE LETTER"!

(Do not copy exactly) "Dear Sir: My friends and I urge you to reduce the deficit 300-600 million bucks through allowing the sale of DoD semi-auto M14s, M1 carbines, etc. to the law-abiding, taxpaying voters. Thank you for listening to a voter. Sincerely, _________"

Send to your (two Senators), US Senate, Wash. DC 20510 and (your Representative), US House of Rep. Wash DC 20515

Save and make a copy of this and pass it on to a friend! register & vote, and make sure your gun-owning friends do also!

It does not take a lot of time to get your Congressman's ear. A "One Minute Letter" will count just as much as a three-page letter - but takes a lot less time to write. Make your opinion count - send a "One Minute Letter"!

 

[alan]

Sgt. Bob:

I like the idea of what you refer to as "the one minute letter" or phone call. Re the idea of phone calls, local offices of your senators and or congress critters are a place to go. Also, the following, which I have posted before, in other discussions, might be of interest. The toll free number for Capitol Switchboard is 1-800-648-3516. Just tell the lady who answers which senatorial or congressional office you want to speak with. They put these calls through, sometimes you get a busy. If you do, try again.

As for gun owners being a lazy lot, unfortunately true, however the general run of citizens are lazy too. As you mentioned, ignore your rights, and they will go away. Fred's article is worth the moment it takes to read.

Gun owners have simply got to grow beyond their insularity, their lazyness and if I may, their bloodminded stupidity. Some of them actually believe that the antis will allow them, their favorite arms, they simply have to BETRAY the owners of those "nasty, non-sporting guns" for instance, whatever they might actually be. Just remember that the earth isn't flat, that 2 + 2 = 4, and finally that to the anti gunners, anything that goes BANG is one of those "nasty guns", ALL of which, eventually must be banned.

People like Tom Lantos are the very worst type of double-talkers, and back stabbers.