SIG #8 (P239) and more of the same ... they just work!!!

[MCMXI]

SIG has been getting a lot of bad press over the past couple of years but certainly not from me. I picked up a P239 SAS Gen 2 chambered in 9mm Luger a few weeks back with the intention of using it for CC. I took it to the range today for the first time. I shot 114 reloads (115gr FMJ, 5.0gr W231, WIN brass) using the two factory 8-round magazines and five SIG 10-round magazines. I was shooting at steel plates at 65 yards and the sights are slightly off to the right (maybe 6") but this is a really nice pistol. No problems feeding, firing or ejecting ... just typical SIG out of the box reliability. I cleaned and oiled the pistol before heading off to the range. This is my 8th SIG and I don't know why I should be surprised that it worked without any issues. In twenty years of owning and shooting SIGs, I've only found one brand/type of ammunition that one of my SIGs didn't like. That was 88gr Remington JHP and my P225 was unreliable with it but I could care less since I was given that crap many years ago and wouldn't have bought it by choice. I've never had any issues with any other SIG with a wide range of ammunition ... ever!! Count me as one of the satisfied customers.

Here are a couple of photos of the little beast with the 8 and 10-round mags ... I didn't even bother to clean it.

 

[HK-Freak]

I'm glad you like yours, but you can count me as one of the people who's given up on SIG. The barrel and mag-well of my P226 rusts like it was a design requirement (and if I even attempt to carry it, I'll ruin my clothes because of all the oil that it requires), and my P238 had to be sent into Exeter four times before it started working properly. Then of course there was my Mosquito that was basically a $350 non-functioning gun replica.

So yeah, I'm slowly but surely getting rid of my SIG inventory.

 

[MCMXI]

The barrel and mag-well of my P226 rusts like it was a design requirement

"Rusts" ... isn't the frame aluminum? I've never had any rust on any of my SIG barrels and I live in a humid and salty environment.

 

[HK-Freak]

I had a picture of it on my Photobucket account, but I deleted it recently. I have no reason to B.S. you. I'm glad you like yours, but what more can I tell you? Here's pics of both my guns just to prove that I own them and am not just spreading rumors out of blind hate.

 

[HK-Freak]

Here's a pic of the mag-well from about two months ago. I'll look on my other computer later to see if I can find a pic of the barrel.

 

[MCMXI]

HK-Freak, could the rust be from the magazine since the frame is aluminum? Aluminum oxide is typically white and not red. Anyway, sorry to hear about your bad experience. Four trips back to SIG for your P228 is ridiculous and I wouldn't be impressed either. The odd thing is that the P220, 225, 226, 228 and 229 series are known quantities having been around for a long time. How could SIG screw that up? As for the P238 and the Mosquito ... neither is on my wish list. Good luck with whatever manufacturer you choose next.

 

[JQP]

Sig should've taken care of those issues, PRONTO, HK-Freak.

Count me as a diehard Sig loyalist since it and Glock are the only two manufacturers of which I own multiple sidearms that have NOT ONCE EXPERIENCED a FTF, FTE, or any other malfunction, and this included in 9mm, .40S&W and .357Sig - thousands of rounds.

The only rust I've ever experienced on a Sig was the grip screws. Then again, I do know some of the older P226s and were known to develop rust on the slide if not cleaned well regularly and lubed up regularly.

My P239 (just recently sold - bad mistake, and I'll be getting another) was lightly used - NOT its fault. It was built every bit as well as any combat grade sidearm I've owned. It was a very stout and robust bastard and I miss it dearly.

OP - I only see one aspect of your beautiful P239 - was the slide made in West Germany as my circa-2004 P239's was?

 

[HK-Freak]

HK-Freak, could the rust be from the magazine since the frame is aluminum? Aluminum oxide is typically white and not red. Anyway, sorry to hear about your bad experience. Four trips back to SIG for your P228 is ridiculous and I wouldn't be impressed either. The odd thing is that the P220, 225, 226, 228 and 229 series are known quantities having been around for a long time. How could SIG screw that up? As for the P238 and the Mosquito ... neither is on my wish list. Good luck with whatever manufacturer you choose next.

It's very possible that it did originate from the magazine and not the gun. Either way, the rust still appears on the gun in a bad way as you can see, and could do some serious damage if it goes unnoticed.

The rust on the barrel is what really drove me to the point of giving up on SIG. I wish I could find pictures of it, because the entire top of the exposed part of the barrel was completely covered in rust. And yes, I know someone is going to accuse me of being negligent of my gun, but all I can say is that I treat ALL of my guns equally. None better, none worse, and the P226 is the ONLY one that has ever had this issue.

I'm not trying to disparage those of you who have spent your hard earned money on SIG's. I'm simply sharing my experience with the brand, so please don't take it personally.

 

[MCMXI]

OP - I only see one aspect of your beautiful P239 - was the slide made in West Germany as my circa-2004 P239's was?

The other side of the slide only has SIG SAUER P239 SAS stamped on it so I don't know where it was made ... probably the US but that's just a guess. Quite a few people have chosen the P239 as a CC firearm and I can see why. I have fairly large hands but had no trouble establishing and maintaining a good grip. I was able to consistently hit a 12" plate at 65 yards once I figured out the sights, but for CC I'll take reliability over accuracy any day of the week. It would seem that I don't have to make that choice with the P239. Admittedly, 114 rounds isn't a long-term test, but my experience with SIG has been that if it works on day 1 (and they all have), it usually works 20 years later (and they all do).

 

[MCMXI]

I'm not trying to disparage those of you who have spent your hard earned money on SIG's. I'm simply sharing my experience with the brand, so please don't take it personally.

Not at all. Everyone's experience is unique to them. I probably wouldn't want to buy any more SIGs either if I'd experienced your issues.

 

[JQP]

The other side of the slide only has SIG SAUER P239 SAS stamped on it so I don't know where it was made ... probably the US but that's just a guess. Quite a few people have chosen the P239 as a CC firearm and I can see why. I have fairly large hands but had no trouble establishing and maintaining a good grip. I was able to consistently hit a 12" plate at 65 yards once I figured out the sights, but for CC I'll take reliability over accuracy any day of the week. It would seem that I don't have to make that choice with the P239. Admittedly, 114 rounds isn't a long-term test, but my experience with SIG has been that if it works on day 1 (and they all have), it usually works 20 years later (and they all do).

Interesting.

I'm fairly sure the slide is made in Germany as all (?) P239 slides are, but I didn't realize the SAS (which are very nice, BTW) didn't have a German label on them.

Odds are this P239 will run right and well for a long time, 1858. I'm a huge fan, and even though the P239 is robust and stout, it does carry far easier than a P229, which I'm pretty sure was Sig's goal with this design.

FWIW - I really don't care one way or the other where the slide is made except for a company history perspective in this new era of 'global production.' I say this so people don't think I'm obsessing over a trivial aspect.

 

[JQP]

ok - I got it backwards.

Slide is milled stainless steel, blackened, made in Exeter, New Hampshire, and the alloy frame is made in W. Germany.

Obviously, Cohn, the CEO of Sigarms, has not made any friends amongst the loyalist Sig fans.

He has introduced a lot of MIM parts in the newer designs, Sig has come out with some arguably gaudy and 'straying far from core' designs under his tenure, and Sig has also had a rash of QC problems with firearms such as the P238, as well as apparent design problems with the P250 (a least favorite Sig among Sig fans).

It seems like Sig loyalists would like all Sigs to be made 100% in West Germany or Switzerland, use no MIM parts, and not evolve the brand past the core offerings that gave uber reliability, great accuracy, and great fit and finish.

And that sounds reasonable to me, if one also wants to pay 2x as much for the an approximate gun (I also agree about the horrid 250).

What I do know is the P239 is extraordinarily reliable, I prefer its stainless steel milled slide, over a stamped slide, any day of the week, and I really can live with a few MIM parts (such as the hammer).

I honestly do not know how a combat sidearm, built for robustness and reliability, can get better than the partly U.S. made/partly German made P239. If I wanted a fitted competition gun with extremely tight tolerances (that would not function as reliably in adverse conditions), I'd buy one, and it'd probably be a custom Les Baer or such.

 

[FullEffect1911]

Count me in as a Sig fan. The only Sigs I've ever owned came from NH, USA. They have all run very well, the P220 was great, the P226 only had one failure in the first few mags and then worked flawlessly and my horrible p250 that no one wants as if it had some sort of airborne plague has been perfect and is my favorite pistol that Sig makes.

I wouldn't buy into the internet Sig bashing, the NH Sigs can't be much better in my experience.

 

[Prion]

I'm very happy with my Sigs. They have all been perfectly reliable, accurate, and beautiful.

MIM is fine with me if it works.

Sigs flavor of the week? I don't mind as long as they continue to produce the core P-Series staples.

Cohen? Never met the guy but I like the new Sigs better than the old German ones.

I agree that many of these Sig critics really should stick to 1911s of the DW quality and above. Only these semi-custom guns could meet their standards.

 

[MCMXI]

ok - I got it backwards. Slide is milled stainless steel, blackened, made in Exeter, New Hampshire, and the alloy frame is made in W. Germany.

Kind of what I figured since my P220 Combat and P220 Carry both have German frames with US slides. As for MIM, I wish we had the choice to keep the MIM parts or change them as we do for the 1911 platform. I can't speak to the reliability or longevity of MIM because I haven't put enough rounds through my newer SIGs yet. I can't say that I've read of lots of MIM related failures either. However, if someone offered forged (or CNC from barstock) hammers, sears, extractors and triggers for the current SIG models I'd buy them.

 

[JQP]

Kind of what I figured since my P220 Combat and P220 Carry both have German frames with US slides. As for MIM, I wish we had the choice to keep the MIM parts or change them as we do for the 1911 platform. I can't speak to the reliability or longevity of MIM because I haven't put enough rounds through my newer SIGs yet. I can't say that I've read of lots of MIM related failures either. However, if someone offered forged (or CNC from barstock) hammers, sears, extractors and triggers for the current SIG models I'd buy them.

Honestly, if you go to sigforums, I'd have to say the P239 is one of the few ANY make firearms that I've yet to read anyone having any reliability, feed, extraction or any problems with.

The only issue I've ever come across is that some with huge hands don't care for the grip, at least with the stock grips (very thin).

Mine was made back in 2004 or 2005 - frame in W. Germany.

Also, from what I understand, Glock has gone with MIM on 4G, and even all-German fabricated Sigs and HKs on LE/military contracts incorporate MIM.

MIM is in. I think Kimber has even gone to MIM hammers.

 

[MCMXI]

I'm not worried about the P239 or any of the SIGs that I have. I have fairly large hands but have no problem with the grip.

I think Kimber has even gone to MIM hammers.

I have a Kimber that I really like but it has a lot more MIM than just the hammer. I swapped out [strike]all[/strike] most of the MIM parts with forged or CNC parts from high end makers like Ed Brown and Wilson Combat. Anyway, back to the P239 ... it's a keeper.

 

[evan price]

The only rust issues I've ever had with my Sigs were with the older, folded slide P220 could sometimes rust if I wore it out in the rain and left it in the leather. Even then it was just a little rubbing with oil to clean it.

Have to say mine are otherwise in every respect 100% as long as you use Sig or Mec-Gar magazines. Promags are a mistake.

 

[MtnSpur]

Sig 239 9mm

I absolutely am a SIG fan with my Sig 239 in 9mm. I used it to renew my CHL for the range portion of the requirement and didn't leave any hit outside of the 7 ring. She's a flawless feeder and eats anything I've ever put through her. Originally I only used CLP for maintenance but recently switched over to SLIP 2000 which resists buildup and corrosion much better (IMHO). I carry the 239 in a Don Hume OT and can wear lightweight shirts that still minimize imprinting that I'm carrying. It's not my only carry weapon but certainly the one I wear the most.

 

[rskent]

I love my 239.

I love my 239. Aside from being a tad heavy, it’s one of my favorite pistols. I have never had a failure with it.
I have sweat all over it in sunny Florida. It is scary accurate. It just runs and runs. It is defiantly my go to 9mm.
Good shooting
Steve

 

[crashbuell]

It may be a generational thing. I have been carrying/shooting SIG's for almost a decade, as well as being a SIG Armorer and I haven't personally experienced any of the above named issues. I will say, though, that a couple of guys at my department have the newer generation "railed" 226's and have had a couple of fit-and-finish issues with them. Both guns have had the rear sights simply fall out during shooting, and the fit on some of the components have been a slightly off. Their guns usually take a little longer to put back together after servicing, which seems to stem from the internal dimensions of the gun and components. Just an observation...

 

[MCMXI]

I will say, though, that a couple of guys at my department have the newer generation "railed" 226's and have had a couple of fit-and-finish issues with them. Both guns have had the rear sights simply fall out during shooting, and the fit on some of the components have been a slightly off.

I bought a P220 Combat and Carry earlier this year and both have been superb with excellent fit and finish .... both have rails. I've noticed no unusual wear on the frame and the sights are fine but I'm sure you get to handle a lot more SIGs than me so you're bound to see more "problem" guns. I installed Meprolight night sights on the Carry last week and the factory sights were nice and tight based on resistance during removal using the SIG sight installation tool. The Combat and Carry perform just like the P239 without a single failure to feed, fire, extract or eject and that's with two kinds of reloads and three kinds of factory ammunition (around 1,000 rounds in all). I've finally accepted the fact that the 185gr LSWC that I use will not feed reliably in my Kimber (due to the tight match chamber) but all of my SIGs eat it up with no problems to report. The only thing I don't like and couldn't live with were the short triggers (I'm not talking about the short reset trigger in the P239). I was able to find a pair of 10mm wide serrated standard triggers and swap them out in about 10 minutes.

 

[Salty1]

I get a chuckle from the Sig bashers, if I did that to Glocks I would be getting flamed from all across the globe, so for the sake of peace during the Christmas Season I will refrain. I own and have owned a lot of Sig's and still believe deep inside that they are second to none. My 239 (DAK) is my favorite carry gun, chambered in 357, my 250 (DAO) has over 15,000 rounds through it and it still performs as new. Some of the earlier 238's did have some issues, like almost all newly released guns, I was fortunate that none of my 238's had problems. The 220 series are (IMO) the best non 1911 45 on the market, like other manufacturers they need to change with the times and release new products, gun people just do not buy and own one and when people develop a brand loyality then they will continue to purchase that brand. The botom line is I do not believe that the US made Sig's have any noticable quality problems across the product spectrum. I will continue to own Sig's as they work perfectly for what I want in a handgun, so why change. Personally I would not take a Glock if it was given to me.... sorry, just could not resist.... Happy Holidays........

 

[rellascout]

The botom line is I do not believe that the US made Sig's have any noticable quality problems across the product spectrum. I will continue to own Sig's as they work perfectly for what I want in a handgun, so why change.

Keep believing that to be the case. Cohen is counting on it.

The problems with current production and quality control have roots in every change that Cohen and his management group have made at Sig. Here is just a short list.

GSR 1911 Great gun from premium parts. Capian frames storm lake barrels but Sig was unable to properly fit these precision parts. Guns where hit or miss until they went to in house parts with looser tolerances.

556 rifle hit the streets with mismatch finishes and canted rails. No sights cheap plastic parts from China. The delivered rifle was a pale comparison to the real 55X series rifles or even the proto-types shown at shot.... but the price stated the same. To get something even close to the real thing you are looking at $1600+.

Sig mosquito... horrible trigger only shoots 90% with the most expensive 22LR ammo on the market. Made by a 3rd party.

P220 Milled stainless slide with the old internal extractor.... well documented issues with extraction, feeding the last round from a mag and FTF.

P250 first gen was a disaster. Problems all over the place. Did not sell well. Gen 2 guns have been reduced to a $400 to move the metal.

P238 still has issues because they bought the rights to an avg design and cheapened it to the point of failure. It was built to hit a price point in the competitive mini 380 auto market. The #1 Sig smith in the world will not work on them. Recoil springs last at best 500 rounds, this is direct from Sig, and you might still have issues.

Fit and finish of the new slides is not as good as it used to be. Burrs left in the guns + milled stainless slide + hard nitron finish = gauged alum frames which cannot be repaired.

With every generation the number of MIM parts is increasing.

Now this is not saying Sig is not still making good guns. This does not mean that every gun from Sig is a lemon. It does show a pattern of less quality, lessor R&D with proper test, cheaper parts and customer problems. They increase production but did not increase customer service. Growth has to be even and elastic to keep up on both ends of the business. I believe that your chances of getting a problem Sig have increased since Cohen took over. It might have been .025% pre-Cohen and currently .75% but that is still 3X as high and the prices are not coming down they are going up. IMHO YMMV

Cohens job is to move the metal. He is running the same playbook he ran at Kimber. He increased sales and at the same time damaged the Kimber rep for building quality production 1911. They still moved a lot of metal but turned Kimber into a love them or hate them brand. I personally hop he does not have the same level of success at Sig.

PS before you label me a Sig hater I own more Sigs than any other brand of handgun. I own or have owned a P228 X3/P226/P226 Navy/P220 X3/P250/GSR/P229/SP2022/P245/P225. I criticize them because I love them... LOL

 

[garyhan]

I fell in love with the 239 when I rentedd one on the range. Had to have one immediately of course. After 7 years, o malfuntions and great accuracy.

gary