Sig P238: Interesting problem

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

I took my P238 to the range today. For those who don't know, the Sig P238 is a .380 ACP. I shot a box of Magtech FMJ through it. Out of a box of 50, I experienced two extraction problems. The rest of the box cycled properly. However, upon examining the casings I found roughly 10 casings that were quite damaged. Interestingly, neither of the two casings that gave the extraction problems were part of the group of 10 that experienced heavy damage. The damage was at the open end of the casings.

Note: There was no feeding problems and only the two extraction problems out of 50 rounds today. Any ideas as to what might cause such damage to the casings? Thanks.

**I'll add pictures as soon as possible.

 

[fragin228]

Yo, I too own a P238 Rainbow. I purchased it mabye two months ago and it has the 3rd gen magazines. It functions awesome. However I did have 1 Failure to feed and 1 Failure to Eject during the first shoot. I have since shot 500 Rounds (counted, not guessed.) and have not had a problem since.

I shoot on a private range of my own and recently decided to pick up the shells. I noticed several that were bashed as though the slide had smacked into them as they were semi-ejected. I found at least 4-5 of those shells on the ground and they had to have been shot through my Sig P238. No one else uses that range except my brother who does not have a .380. I am certain of that, I have asked him and asked if he had friends that might have shot.

So, basically what I am saying is that my P238 must be smashing those brass during ejection without effecting the chambering of the next round.

The Sig p238 is an awesome gun and I reallly thought i'd never buy another gun that wasn't a sig when I bought it. Ive got an 800 dollar ruger redhawk that didnt make me a diehard ruger fan, but this little sig is amazing.

 

[LightningMan]

You too are not the only one with this occurance, myself and two others I personal know have experenced this. At least for me, it usually is the last round fired out of the pistol. Two pretty good dents in the brass that can't be saved. I will say it seems like the hotter ammo has less of these occurances. BTW I do have the new flat spring. LM

 

[cfullgraf]

Damaged cases is not a rare problem with the P238. Except for reloaders, it is not a big issue for lots of folks. Other problems that shut the gun down were of more concern with many.

Occasionally, a case will get jammed between between the breech and barrel.

I feel the problem is a combination of extractor tension and how well the pistol is held when firing. There may be other contributing factors. But I don't have any firm data to support that.

Some day, I may try some other grips than the aluminum ones that came on my pistol to help keep the pistol from moving around in my hand during firing.

My P238 usually crushes 2 or 3 cases per 50.

 

[fragin228]

now that u mention it... i did let a younger girl shoot the gun. She probably shot 50 rounds. She was definately limp wristing it. The .45 Taurus mill pro wouldnt cycle in her hands, neither would the Tokarev tt-33. I bet the Sig p238 was trying to cycle but in her weaker hands, the slide didnt come all the way back, thus crushing the cases slightly on the way forward...

Thats probably where those damaged brass of mine came from...

 

[AK103K]

Mine had a 5-10% brass loss rate due to damage. The extractor was properly tensioned, and grip wasnt an issue.

This is what was causing the problem with the brass, and often caused a stoppage.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Here is a pic of the casings from yesterday's range event. I found an eighth round that had popped into my range bag. So eight out of a box of 50 ended like this.

Throughout the box of 50, I experienced two jams. None of these casings were responsible for the jams. Go figure, eh? Remember, these are Magtech rounds. I even put a few S&B's through it. A couple of them were kind of funky looking but none of them were like these shown.

Question (More of a concern really): Is this an internal problem which will lead to further problems down the road?

 

[AK103K]

Its hard to say if it will be a problem or not. Mine didnt have a stoppage every round that was damaged, but it had enough of them to be annoying. Maybe call SIG and see what they say. The brass is an indicator, and not a mysterious, undocumented problem.

 

[cfullgraf]

Another observation that I have had, for what ever reason, Sig redesigned the cam action of the barrel when compared to the Colt Mustang. The P238's barrel cams down farther than the Mustangs.

This is, in my opinion, why Sig has had three designs of the magazine followers. The "high hump" on the Mustang's magazine follower sometimes causes problems. The newer generation Sig followers have lowered and reduced this hump. My gun has always been less reliable running Mustang magazines.

Again, my opinion, as the barrel cams down, the extractor loses some contact with the rim and loses some control of the case when compared to the Mustang.

After my previous post, I found that Hogue makes some rubber grips for the P238 so I have ordered a set. I'll see how they work. One of these days, I'll order a couple of spare extractors to play with.

I do like the P238.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Sig won't cover the P238 under warranty because I'm not the original purchaser. At times like this it makes me wish I had purchased a High Point.

 

[guzzi]

P238 brass dings

My wife has a P238, and she will often have the brass dings and shell hangs that are being discussed. However I have never had this happen when I shoot it.

My guess is we are dealing with grip issues.

 

[AK103K]

I dont know what kind of grip issues it would be. Mine did it regardless who was shooting the gun. Seems its more mechanical to me.

 

[guzzi]

regardless who was shooting

This makes me wonder if Sig is making changes to components as production continues. I understand there is a change in the recoil spring, but is there more?

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Looks like the problem has been solved. My gunsmith took a look at the casings, pictured above, and he couldn't believe the amount of damage. He checked out my P238 and he believes the damage is due to underpowered ammo. He advised me to try different ammo. If the problems persist he'll want to look at it again. So, there it is. We'll try different ammo and check the casings upon my next range visit. Thanks to all who took part in this thread.

 

[AK103K]

Good luck.

 

[Slowplayaa]

Good luck with the new, higher powered ammo. Please keep us posted.

 

[reuben mishler]

I read earlier today about a recall on Sigs p238. I don't think it has anything to do with the issue you are talking about on this thread, but wanted to give you guys a heads up.

http://www.sigsauer.com/customerservice/p238upgrade.aspx

 

[kokapelli]

I read earlier today about a recall on Sigs p238. I don't think it has anything to do with the issue you are talking about on this thread, but wanted to give you guys a heads up.

http://www.sigsauer.com/customerservice/p238upgrade.aspx

That recall was for a very limited number of the very early production pistols.

 

[27Contender]

Here is a pic of the casings from yesterday's range event. I found an eighth round that had popped into my range bag. So eight out of a box of 50 ended like this.

Ah yes, those look all too familiar.

Mine went back twice and they are replacing it.

Did you have any better luck with different ammo?

 

[_JD_]

Check your extractors for clocking. Search for 1911Tuners posts regarding this, if you can apply pressure to the flat of your extractor high and low and make it rotate in it's channel...I'm not sure how many degrees...but if it can rotate far enough you will get dinged cases. My original P238HD had this issue, Sig eventually replaced the gun. I was able to manipulate the extractor in it's channel and watch the claw rotate. Sloppy extractor to firing pin stop fit or incorrectly cut extractor channels can cause this. Enough rotation can result in failure to extract as the claw is not making enough contact with the casing, and can also cause feed issues.

My gun was eventually replaced, the new gun is running well.

 

[_JD_]

Here's one of 1911Tuner's posts regarding clocking extractors, while the P238 is not a 1911, the slide design regarding the extractor and the firing pin stop is almost identical but in smaller scale

Clocking is another cause of many extractor woes...and it's hard to catch it sometimes. To check for it, load one round from slidelock at full speed and draw the slide back slowly to eject the round. Repeat several times. if it's clocking, you'll usually see it within 5 cycles. Sometimes a tighter friction fit works...adding more bend...sometimes not. When it doesn't, fitting an oversized firing pin stop to a light press-fit cures it unless the extractor channel is located too far to the right and the side of the stop can't abut against the bottom of the stop's slot in the extractor. A clocking extractor's malfunction usually shows up graphically on the last round by crushing the case between the barrel hood and the slide, and if the tension is high enough, it can actually stuff the case part-way back into the magazine.
Erratic ejection is another clue to a clocking extractor, and occurs at random throughout the magazine...but the last round case crush is the dead giveaway. What happens is that the tension is good, but when the extractor rotates, it drops the case low enough to depress the follower, preventing
slidelock. The slide rides forward and tries to chamber the case that has been kicked on an upward angle by the ejector. Sometimes it's not that obvious, and the case gets ejected with the mouth mangled badly. Finding an occasional ruined case among your brass is another sign. The reason that it doesn't happen on the other rounds is because the convex surface of the upcoming round keeps the empty case high enough to hit the ejector. Some people have found that a magazine follower with a round surface will "correct" this problem...but it's a band-aid fix that doesn't work consistently.