SIG P239 9mm and +P, +P+ ammo

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

Hello,

Are there any issues with firing +P or +P+ ammunition out of a 9mm SIG P239? Would a heavier recoil spring or perhaps a buffer be required? If so, any recommendations on what to get?

Thanks in advance,

-Jack

 

[Phenom]

I don't think any handguns are rated for +P+ ammo. Sigs are nato-spec firearms and will handle +P just fine.

 

[Rinspeed]

If so, any recommendations on what to get?

A bigger caliber perhaps?

 

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

A bigger caliber perhaps?

Not real helpful, pal. Besides, I already have .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, and .40S&W handguns.

-Jack

 

[strat81]

Not real helpful, pal. Besides, I already have .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, and .40S&W handguns.

I'm new to handguns, so this question isn't intended to sound flippant, but... Why +p+ if you already have a variety of bigger caliber weapons?

 

[hurrakane212]

An idea

I'd be willing to bet that a 357SIG p239 with a 9mm barrel would handle +P+ fine. I really have no experience with them though so take that with an entire shaker of salt.
Would just buying a 357 SIG get you +P+ preassures and maybe easier to find the ammo? (In the +P+ range that is) ~Nathan

 

[BrennanKG]

Jack,

Your Sig is most likely rated for +P and possibly for +P+, although +P+ will definitely wear it out quicker than normal. I know my old USP was rated for +P+ and used to feed it Hirtenberger 9mm submachinegun ammo. Zippy little bastards.

Check http://www.sigforum.com/.
If it's posted anywhere, it'll be there.

P239 in 9mm is a sweet handgun; it's what my wife wants for her CHL.

B.

 

[BrennanKG]

hurrakane,

While I'm sure you're right pressure-wise, I don't believe you can swap 357sig to 9mm the way you can between 357sig and 40S&W. While 357sig and 9mm share bullet size they have different cases.




B.

 

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

I'm new to handguns, so this question isn't intended to sound flippant, but... Why +p+ if you already have a variety of bigger caliber weapons?

That's a fair question.

My other pistols are full-size, and I wanted something compact for carry. I know from experience that I don't shoot .40 or .45 very accurately out of a compact handgun, so I decided that 9mm was the best choice for a small semi-auto.

(I already have the Sig, by the way)

My question about +P and +P+ stem from my desire to get the most out of the 9mm caliber. Articles I've read have been particularly positive about the Winchester Ranger RA9TA round, which is a +P+ load. _Gun Tests_ magazine did a comparison test of various factory +P and +P+ 9mm ammo, and found the RA9TA was producing performance comparable to a mid-power .357 Magnum round. It also expands reliably, penetrates reasonably well, and is consistently accurate. Without wishing to start a major ammo debate, it's the round I've decided on for carry/defensive use in that caliber.

In starting this thread, I was mainly seeking advice on whether a stiffer recoil spring and/or buffer was needed to use +P+ in my Sig. I know the hotter load will wear out the pistol faster, and most of my range plinking will be with standard-pressure rounds with occasional use of +P or +P+ to keep in practice. So far, I've found no appreciable difference in point of impact between standard and high-pressure ammo, at least not at typical defensive ranges (7 - 10 yards).

(This is probably a lot more info than you wanted)

-Jack

 

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

hurrakane,

While I'm sure you're right pressure-wise, I don't believe you can swap 357sig to 9mm the way you can between 357sig and 40S&W. While 357sig and 9mm share bullet size they have different cases

Although I'm not hurrakane, permit me to jump in:

Bar-Sto makes conversion barrels for the P239 with which you can convert from .40 or .357Sig to 9mm. Hope this helps.

-Jack

 

[Phil DeGraves]

+P+ only means they did not SAAMI test the pressure of the ammo. It says in big letters that Blah blah blah, invalidates warranties etc. It's all liability CYA crap. Your gun will shoot it just fine. I've shot a lot of it. It makes a big boom and duplicates 357 Sig performance in ballistic gelatin. It's a great round.

 

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

Your Sig is most likely rated for +P and possibly for +P+, although +P+ will definitely wear it out quicker than normal. I know my old USP was rated for +P+ and used to feed it Hirtenberger 9mm submachinegun ammo. Zippy little bastards.

Check http://www.sigforum.com/.
If it's posted anywhere, it'll be there.

Thanks for the info. I'll check sigforum.com.

-Jack

 

[Rinspeed]

Sorry for being a smart a**. As long as you don't shoot a lot of +P you should fine. I wouldn't shoot much +P+ through the little Sig myself. I'm not sure if you could even find buffers for it but they are a terrible idea for a carry pistol. The 239 frame was designed for 40 and 357 and is identical to the 9mm frame. Sig had problems getting the 239 in 40 to run right with the original 357 mags so they are different, unlike the 229 which uses the same mag for both.

 

[Jack Straw from Wichita]

Sorry for being a smart a**. As long as you don't shoot a lot of +P you should fine. I wouldn't shoot much +P+ through the little Sig myself. I'm not sure if you could even find buffers for it but they are a terrible idea for a carry pistol. The 239 frame was designed for 40 and 357 and is identical to the 9mm frame. Sig had problems getting the 239 in 40 to run right with the original 357 mags so they are different, unlike the 229 which uses the same mag for both

Not a problem. Thanks for the info.

Based on responses, it's sounding like +P is OK, and +P+ should be used sparingly, which is about what I expected.

As soon as I get the Lasergrips installed, it's off to the range . . .

-Jack

 

[AK103K]

I emailed Speer with a question on the difference between the 9mm, 9mm +P, +P+, and the 357SIG. Their response was this,

"The 9mm is a 35,000 psi, +P is 38,500 psi and +P+ is 40,000 psi. The 357 SIG is a 40,000 psi. Bullets of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+. The difference is gun construction, all 9mm's will not handle +P+. All of the 357 SIG's are made to handle the pressures for the caliber."

With that said, if you want to practice with and shoot the hotter 9mm's on a regular basis, your better off with the P239, in 357SIG. (same goes for most other 9mm's)

The 239 in .40/357 is a different critter than the 9mm gun. They may not appear different, but try to put a .40/357 gun in a holster made for the 9mm. Most holster makers offer two holsters for the different calibers.

The mag issue was/is this, the 357's will work in both the .40 and 357 mags, the .40's will not work in the 357 mag due to the mag having a depression in it at the bottleneck in the 357 cartridge. If you compare them side by side, you can instantly see the difference.

 

[cslinger]

Your SIG will be fine with +P, although with accellerated wear of course. +P+ is kind of a gray area. If it is pistol ammo you should be just fine. Stay away from sub machine gun ammo though, that stuff can be really hot.

Chris

 

[jaysouth]

Once again, if you can afford enough hot ammo, +++PPP+++, whatever, to wear out your Sig 239, you can easily afford to buy two or three new pistols.

As with most things in life, do the numbers. Hot ammo is fine. If you shoot it, it will accelerate wear on any gun. This usually means that the gun will wear out in the hands of your grandson instead of your great grandson. Go for it.

 

[jaysouth]

How many rounds of +P+ will a Sig 239 stand up to before it wears out?

Bet its over 50,000. compute the cost of that much ammo.

 

[strambo]

How many rounds of +P+ will a Sig 239 stand up to before it wears out?

Bet its over 50,000. compute the cost of that much ammo.

Maybe before you get a frame crack, maybe not. A steady diet of hot ammo will cause you to burn through springs quicker and I'd imagine mean rounds until failure would go down. Failure as in trigger return spring goes, ect...minor parts failure that will happen eventually on any gun will happen at an accelerated rate. That said, the amount most people shoot a compact pistol like this and the number of actual +P+ rounds put through it should be a non-issue. Test it with a couple boxes of the Ranger load and call it good. Rotate carry ammo every 6 months. So, say, 50 rounds to confirm reliability and maybe a magazine once a month to stay accustomed to the recoil of that load.

I'm currently running 124g +P Gold Dots in my P226 and Kahr K9. I got a deal on 250rds of LE ammo rejects, so I have more to practice with. My handload is a 124g FMJ at about 100-150fps slower. I'm gonna switch to standard pressure 124 gr GDs after my stash of the +P is depleted. The difference in Gel, just isn't enough for me to worry about and batter my guns. I can practice with a load exactly the same as the standard pressure GD...maybe 50fps less for a safety margin in my handloads. The +Ps are nothin' in my P226, but a bit spicy in the Kahr.

 

[AK103K]

Hot ammo is fine. If you shoot it, it will accelerate wear on any gun. This usually means that the gun will wear out in the hands of your grandson instead of your great grandson. Go for it.

A steady diet of hot ammo in a gun not rated for it can and will cause you problems.

I've posted this before, so you may have already seen it.

This is the top half of a SWD M11/9mm that had a couple of thousand hotter Spanish SMG 9mm out of it. It didnt last to long.

The same gun with the new top and at this point many, many tens of thousands of rounds of standard and NATO rated 9mm through it, 19-20 years worth anyways.

Now agreed, the M11 isnt built like a SIG, but it is built to shoot 9mm, and does so fine if you stay within its parameters. Move out of them and things are happening, whether you see it or not.

If you own or are considering a 9mm, and plan on shooting a lot of the hotter ammo, especially if you practice with what you carry, which I personally think should be done if you want to be proficient with your gun, then you might as well move up to the 357SIG. You get the best of both worlds, a gun built to take the pressures, and a round that is starting out power wise, where the 9mm is at the end of its limits, and actually beyond them. The difference in the cost of the gun is nil, and ammo wise, its actually cheaper, both for practice and carry ammo in the long run.

 

[jaysouth]

A couple of years ago, I bought 3,000 rounds of Fed 9BPLE from CDNN when they had it on close out. This is a 115 gr. bullet at +P+ pressure, so it says on the headstamp.

This was a major puchase for me and more than the cost of a new Sig 239. However, the price was a real steal and I bought enough to last the rest of my natural life. I shoot 2-300 rounds of it per year. Most of my shooting is with cast lead handloads in Sigs and 1911s. My annual goal is to burn 8 pounds of HP-38 or 231 in 9mm. I have not succeded in this goal. I am still trying.

Some gunrag writer said that Sigs would go at least a hundred thousand rounds before they were shot out. Assuming that gunwriters only lie half the time this would give a life of 50,000 rounds. 50,000 rounds of +P+ ammo at the prices that I got would come to over $13,000. At todays retail it would be nearer $25,000. If you have that kind of dough to blow, what's a couple of new guns? Who cares if you blow it up or wear it out?

Does higher pressure ammo accelerate wear on your guns? YES, who cares as a practical matter? If you can't afford enough ammo to hurt your gun, it won't. If you can afford that much, who cares.

Interestingly enough, small parts wear out on my 1911s quicker than the Sigs. My favorite is an STI Trojan in 9mm. My other 1911 9mm is a Springfield. It is a troublesome child and requres a lot of patience to shoot and maintain. The STI is a fine gun indeed, but requires more maintenance and small parts than my Sigs.

.357 Sig? Yup, its hot. But expensive, and hard to reload with a limited supply of bullets that really fit it's short neck. Richmond city cops and Va State Police carry it and think its akin to lightning bolts. I am sure they are right but I could not afford to indulge my passions as often as I would like at the prices of the ammo. I'll stick to 9mm and not worry about carrying hot ammo.

 

[AK103K]

.357 Sig? Yup, its hot. But expensive, and hard to reload with a limited supply of bullets that really fit it's short neck.

I see you've bought into the intenet BS. 357SIG really isnt that expensive if you buy in bulk, like I said, about $2-3 a box more than factory 9mm. I dont know about you, but I dont find that all that expensive, and I'm by no means well off.

Its not at all hard to reload for. If you dont want to lube, you add a step and use a .40S&W sizer for the first step, works great. Bullets are really not an issue either, there are 125 grain 9mm bullets specifically available for it, or you can use a 9mm HP profile bullet just as easily. If you use the right powder, the case is full and sometimes the load is even compressed, and bullet setback is not an issue. Even with a load that doesnt quite fill the case, a good crimp holds the bullet tight, the neck isnt an issue.

I think if your going to carry a 9mm, your smart in just using standard pressure ammo. That way you shoot what you practice with and its all the same. If your comfortable it it, hey, thats all that counts. I know people who carry a .22 and are happy with it. Not my cup of tea, but not my worry either. Use what works best for you and what you can shoot well with.