Sight at 100yrds & shoot good at 300 or 600?

[fulloflead]

The range I belong to has ONLY a 100 yard rifle range.

Hypothetically...

If I wanted to be able to sight-in perfectly on the 100-yd range but still be within a 12" or so target at 300-600 yards what rifle/caliber should I choose?

The 100 yard range is all I've got, but I'd like to be able to take my gun out and be able to predict shots in the vitals up to 300 or even better 600 yards.

(It should be something popular that I can buy factory ammo for and have a good selection of bullets reloading.)

What gun/caliber would be a reasonable choice for my problem. Obviously, I'd want something flat-shooting that could reliably take 200-300 lb. game.

 

[roo_ster]

Theoretical Reply:
External ballistics tables exist that can tell you the trajectory of a given bullet leaving the muzzle at a given velocity, as well as drift from a cross wind of given velocity.

Reality:
Ain't gonna happen, buddy. To know where YOUR rifle shoots at 300 or more yards, you gotta shoot it at 300 yards. Way too many variables involved when dealing with individual rifles/ammunition in variable conditions. A rifle that is a 1MOA shooter at 100 yds may not be a 1MOA shooter at 200 yds. Many times, an individual rifle's "personality" has more influence over where POI is than the ballistics of the round.

Sorry for the wet blanket. If my practice range were limited to 100 yds, I'd limit any shots in the filed on animals to 200 yds.

 

[fulloflead]

(Partially deleted by moderator)

If I only have the opportunity to sight in my gun at 100 yards and then, some day, the doodod hits the fan and I have to use my that very same rifle to defend my country, state, city, family or myself and have to make a shot at OVER 100 yards; up to 600 yards, (Obviously, I'll need something flat-shooting) what is the best gun/caliber combo for me to buy?

I have a dozen handguns and I love that part of the sport best, but I'd like to get good at ONE rifle in ONE good caliber as well.

THERE! I feel better. Don't you?

[Tell me if I'm being stupid here and I'll edit my posts.]

-J

 

[ocabj]

Use the JBM trajectory calculator to find a bullet and velocity combination that will work for you.

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj/traj.html

For example, using a data for the .308 175gr Sierra MatchKing (BC of .496) and a muzzle velocity of 2700fps, I would expect a 94.2 inch drop at 600yds from a 100yd zero (according to JBM). To apply this data, I would just dial in around 15.5MOA adjustment in elevation and shoot at the 600yd target and hope for the best.

 

[JohnKSa]

You might get close at 300, but 600 is not gonna happen.

Example. I've got a .223 single shot rifle.

Generally speaking, with the 55 grain bullets, it's going to hit pretty close to dead on at 200yards when zeroed 1.25" high at 100 according to the ballistic charts.

I went to zero the rifle but the wind kicked up to unmanageable levels before I could get to the 200 yard range so I left it at the 1.25" high zero that I worked out at 100 yards.

Then I took it to a match to shoot it at 100, 200 & 300 yards.

It shot 1.25" high at 100 yards--just like I knew it would, but then things went wrong.

At 200 yards, it was still shooting a tiny bit high, and at 300 yards, I was expecting several inches of drop and there was hardly any.

Later I got to thinking about it--I was shooting 52gr bullets, not 55 grain bullets and I didn't have ballistic charts for that particular round. Besides, most of those charts are made for a 22-24" bbl rifle and mine had a 26" bbl.

The .223 is pretty flat shooting, so I wasn't off too badly out to 300 yards, but enough that I didn't win the match.

BUT, terrible things happen to rifle bullets past 300 yards.

Here's an example.

Let's take .223 again.

Assuming a bbl of 24" shooting about 3240fps muzzle velocity using a 55 grain flat base bullet. When the rifle is zeroed for 200 yards, it's going to be down about 8" at 300 yards.

At 500 yards it's going to be down almost 5 FEET! The chart I'm using doesn't even go past 500 yards, but you could probably tack on another 3 feet or more of drop to get you to 600 yards.

Ok, let's say you pick a 7mm Remington Magnum. Pretty heavy bullet, pretty flat shooting--at 500 yards, with a 200 yard zero you're going to hit about 3.5 feet low on the target.

Remember, you can only estimate that you have a proper 200 yard zero since you're shooting at 100 yards. That makes the numbers above optimistic.

I guess you could call the folks that make Shepherd scopes and ask them what to buy to match up the closest with their fancy reticles in one of their scope models and then buy a laser range finder.

Or, buy a military rifle with a marked rear sight and zero at 100 with the sights set to 100. Then when the range stretches, you can set it to the proper setting, hope your ammo is close to spec, hope your barrel isn't fast or slow and let fly.

It'll probably be enough to really scare someone on the downrange side of 600 yards, but then again, shooting at that distance is a lot harder than most people figure too.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Nothing wrong with defending your country out to 600 yards. However, unless we are talking sniper duels, it's pretty unlikely that you would need to defend yourself out to that distance. That said, if you are talking modern bolt-action with optics, .308 wouldn't be a bad choice.

I only shoot out to 100 yards at my local range, but every other month or so, my buddies and I drive out to another range where they have steel targets out to 600 yards. I agree with jfruser , you gotta at least do some shooting out to father distances.

Also, while I am no expert on any kind of shooting, as I understand it, to shoot in the field (i.e. unknown distance) you have to be able to do range estimation (or use a laser rangefinder ). That's because you have to know the distance to know how far your bullet is going to drop at the given distance. Me? I just ask the rangemaster "How far are those two bells out there?"

 

[Brian Dale]

I'd like to get good at ONE rifle in ONE good caliber...

Anything wrong with going to the occasional Highpower match at somebody else's range?

OK, you belong to a terrific gun club. That's a good thing. That doesn't mean that the club is the ONLY place you can shoot. There are some terrific THR folks who live in Colorado; maybe they can give you some info about matches you can attend where you can shoot at 200, 300 and 600 yards, even if you do most of your shooting at your club in Denver.

There are some threads in the Competition Shooting forum and in Rifle Country with posts by Dr.Rob, Steve Smith and Jon Coppenbarger. They know a lot (as do many others; I just don't recall everybody who's in CO). I recommend that you search for their names and words like "matches" and "highpower" in those forums, in addition to what you find out from this thread.

In answer to your other question: no, I don't think that you're being stupid. It's possible that you're worrying too much, though.

 

[artherd]

For 'one rifle' either .308 or .30-06 is going to be my recomendation. Probally .308 because it's cheaper and you can practice more.

Both will do everything you'll ever likely need a rifle to do, and ammo is available near everywhere on the face of the earth.

Now, to your question, my .338 Lapua Magnum is 'point blank' (+-3 inches) to 297yards with a hypothetical 250yd zero. It's more like 12" low at 300 with a 100 yd zero.


However, at 600 it is 86 inches low!


While .308 is definately adequate to 600yds, I have to say that the .338LM makes 600 yard shots seem almost silly-easy. Given a 250gr slug at 3,000fps (phew!) with a BS similar to that of .50BMG, one hardly has to worry about wind untill after 600+.

PS: I have a Shepherd V1 scope mounted to the AR-30 (.338LM) and it's fantastic. You don't even really need an LRF if you are shooting at deer, or, uh, silouettes. Both are about 18" across and the rangefinding circles in the reticule do the rest.

Just drop the circle that fits onto the target, and BOOM!

I have one on my semi-auto .30-06 too and it's retarted easy to make 500yd shots on silouettes from the off-hand (unsupported.) at a terrific rate.

 

[Preacherman]

Fulloflead, please check your PM.

 

[Freedomv]

There is a reduced range target for sighting in M-1 garands in cal. 30 or 7.62 nato. If I remember correctly it is for 25 yds, maybe 50 yds. It has an aming black dot at the base and a verticale line running straight up for about 30 inches.
This line is cross referanced at 200, 300, 500, 600 and out to 1000yds. for bullet impact .
You simple shoot at the target "bull" as you would any other and count the clicks up to get the correct point of impact for what ever range that you desire. Its real good for the m-1 but the differance in sight radius of the m-14 is enough that it will only get you in the ball park with the m-14. Differant bullet wieghts also changes the point of impact.
I used to call them Thermometer targets.
Vern

 

[echo3mike]

Freedomv's idea is pretty good... it's been used with a respectable amount of success. Go to JBM's updated page , plug in the data for your bullet and caliber and set the zero range to 600 yds. You'll see how high your POI will be at 100 yds, so you'll be able to get a rough 600yd elevation setting at 100 yds.

There's a fairly old method of assuring a bullet strike (somewhere) on a human-size target from 100 out to around 700yds (without making any scope adjustments) called the Reverse Image Zero. With the .303 caliber round, the shooter put a 700 yd zero on his rifle and aimed for a point 6' BELOW his target. The method utilized the bullet's trajectory (rise) to accomodate for any range variation. With the .308 caliber, the POA is the feet, since a rifle zeroed at 700 yds gave the bullet a maximum ordnance of around 6'. Interestingly enough, this method works (with some adjustment of POA) with a number of calibers.

Just another bit of marksmanship trivia.

S.

 

[fulloflead]

I like Freedomv's idea too. Thanks! I think I've seen those targets before.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

You could also consider a Mil-Dot scope. This way you can zero at 100 and use the dots for longer distances...

 

[artherd]

I'm not kidding, get a Shepherd!

 

[0007]

Several places I've read that the Shepherd is a shooter's scope, not a "precision" shooter's scope due to the size of the cross hairs and the various ranging gradicules. That said, it seems to me that if it will helpt you drop your rounds into 12-18 inch circles at up to 500yds, that's more then most of us will ever worry about... How is it holding up on your AR-30?

 

[artherd]

The Shepherd may not be a conventional 'precision' scope, but it certinly fills that role VERY well.

It is very effective to 1,000yards. At 500yds it is almost stupid how easy it is. To sell this scope as a '500yd deer hunter's scope' is like selling a .50BMG as the same. Sure, both will fill the role, but are capable of so much more.

Try 10" circles at 1,000yds with a gun capable of the same.

Clay pidgions at 500.

My younger brother, who had not so much fired a rifle ever in his life, slaped an 18" sillouette in the center at 500yds with my AR-30 and Shepherd. On his very first shot out of any rifle. He put one mag through my Glock beforehand, otherwise he had never shot a firearm in his life.


Beyond 1,000 where the circles end it is the equal of any other quality 18X 40mm objective out there. (Leupold, US Optics, Nightforce, etc.)

The crosshair's size does not make shots any more difficult at all, however it will not be something the seasoned shooter is 'expecting' nessicarily. It is not inferior in this regard, only different.

There is definately a lot going on in the reticule, but this is all good information and makes quick and very accurate shots a reality. I would liken the increase in complexity to compareing an F-16 with HUD to a Cesena 150.


100 rounds of full-up .338 Lapupa Magnum at 3,000fps so far. However, the AR-30 is a pussycat with it's 12lb weight and huge brake. The scope also took some 500+ rounds from my ~6lb .30-06 semi-auto.

I would trust it on a .50BMG with good rings. But it probally is not the strongest scope out there.

On the plus side, because of the multiple reticules, you KNOW beofre you take a shot, if there is a problem.

 

[Gewehr98]

As stated before in this thread...

If you are limited to a 100 yard firing range, but want to set your zero out to 300-600, then it's an easy matter of using a holdover target. Here's one I used, and I'd be more than happy to send a copy to whomever needs one.

 

[30Cal]

I'd look at a 308 or 30-06. Anything designed for medium sized game in the last 80 years or so will shoot pretty flat out to 300yds. By 600yds, time of flight is ~1 second, everything but the .50 calibers are dropping like a stone out of the sky. A bullet will generally fall about 6' between 300 and 600yds.

A 3-4mph wind will push you about a foot at 600. A 20mph wind will push your bullet over about 5 feet.

I spent the entire day yesterday at 600yds and there were a couple times where I missed a wind change and my impact shifted by 12-18".

 

[hillbilly]

Savest thou some cash and get thee a rifle with a scope.

Then, get thyself unto a place like:

http://www.badlandstactical.net

In one class I attended, the class was practicing our alternate positional shooting on the 400 yard "crazy ivan" silhouette and ringing with consistency. Alternate position means something other than prone....standing, standing supported, sitting, kneeling, leaning over an oil drum, shooting off your buddy's shouder, etc. etc.

"Crazy Ivan" would be a half-sized silhouette simulating head and shoulders only.

But if you can, get to a range that is actually the distance you need to shoot at.

hillbilly

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

since you live in the denver area why don't you try one of our highpower clinics or all four of them.

They are held at the range at buffalo creek out of bailey just up 285 south west of denver.

The clinics cover one position and yardage per clinic like this
First clinic is on rapid fire sitting fired at 200 yards
second clinic in on off hand unsupported at 200 yards
third clinic is on rapid fire prone at 300 yards
fourth clinic is on slow fire prone at 600 yards.

the clinics are spaced out from several weeks apart to around a month apart.

The cost is $45 for a adult and includes the following:
#1 match grade service rifle ar15 made by either rock river arms or bushmaster and are the heavy barrel CMP rifles for the day.

#2 all ammo fired during the day which runs around 50 rounds of match grade 223 for each shooter

#3 We provide the hamburgers and hotdogs, plus sodas for a barbeque and after that its a pot luck and we usually have tons of food and a good time is had by all.

We usually take up to 45 shooters for each clinic and they will start to fill up very fast over the next several weeks before the first clinic.

after that its you show up and if someone is a no show you get in.

The typical day goes like this:
0800 sign-in
0900 clinic starts with a short classroom on the topic and position of the day which usually last no more than around 1 1/2 hours.
1030ish we move to the firing line where we will put 3 students with a instructor and then ! student goes to the pits to learn how to mark and score the target while 1 student fires and the other student scores.

After each student has fired his or her number of rounds we rotate the jobs.

So you get a busy day like a normal run across the corse match but at one position.

You will have a classified nra highpower shooter as your one on one instructor and he will fire the position string to show you what it looks like followed by shooting drills you perform while shooting and then you will get a score for the last 10 shots fired out of the 50 shot and that goes to determine at the end of the day any awards we give out like high shooter each day among the students gets a free years membership to the club.

We have nice camping sites and open the site and range up usually by 3 or so the day before the clinic for anyone who wishes to come up and play or camp the day before. We get a few shooters every clinic that come from on of the bordering states to attend this clinics.

it will get you all the info you need on your sights and drops at 200,300 and 600 yards.

I would at least suggest the 200 yard sitting clinic anmd the 600 yard clinic.
You can email me for more info if you like and contact numbers.
[email protected]
we usually have at least one national champion as a instructor and sometimes as once last year we had 3 of them at our 600 yard clinic and one came all the way from ILL.

Thank you Jon Coppenbarger