Signs of Overpressure in 20 Year Old Handloads

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smithbm

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I loaded some rounds about 20 years ago. I don't remember seeing any signs of overpressure at the time. However, when I blew the dust off and fired a few rounds last week I got a stiff bolt and flattened primers. I stopped after the second round and plan to pull the rest of the lot to verify the powder charges. Oddly enough, I still have the same can of powder that was used, but I'll probably end up dumping it for piece of mind, unless the powder charges are obviously over weight.

The cases were neck sized to the rifle. They've been stored bullet down in an MTM case within a steel ammo can.

I'd like some information on how or why these loads are exhibiting signs of overpressure. I'd also like to know if I need to change the way I'm storing my ammo.

Rifle: Remington 788
Caliber: .243 Win
Bullet: Hornady 87gr BTHP
Powder: 43.0gr IMR 4350
Primer: CCI 200
COAL: 2.697
 
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The most likely cause is powder deterioration. Gunpowder breaks down, the burn rate becomes unstable, and pressures climb.

I have posted all sorts of data and charts here:

Danger with Deteriorating Powder

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820


What you should do is disassemble your rounds and dump the powder. The cases are salvageable if there is no evidence of pitting. Be aware, old ammunition with gunpowder that is outgassing nitric acid gas, you are highly likely to experience case neck cracks once those cases are fired.
 
That is what I was thinking, but I also know that there's a lot of old surplus ammo out there that seems to work just fine. I'll check out your data and evaluate the powder as soon a I can. One of the cases did indeed have a small crack in the neck.
 
The loading looks like a full pressure loading. Part of the problem may be neck sizing. I would lube the rear locking lugs with Rem oil/teflon. Also bump the OAL a tiny bit shorter to break the cold welding of the bullet to the brass. Check a few for the correct powder charge. If ok, i would shoot them.
 
I've run into this problem before, though I have yet to find the cause to be old powder. Bumping the bullets to break the weld has always solved the pressure spike issue.

So if the powder smells and looks to be ok, I would bump them a few thou and try again.

GS
 
Th
e most likely cause is powder deterioration.

Kind of doubt that really. Looks like the charge is pretty much maximum.
Hornady books from 20 years ago don't mention that powder with that bullet weight.

Unless you have notes on how that load performed, it's pretty hard to remember a load from 20 years ago unless it was your standard load. Maybe a load that was loaded up but not tested yet.

I wouldn't throw 20 year old powder away unless I was sure it was bad.

OYE
 
I have yet to see old powder cause pressure spikes.

Bumping the bullets to break the weld has always solved the pressure spike issue.

This is what I would do, after verifying your powder charge in a couple.

Looks like you were loading on the upper margins back then, which were probably higher than what they are now. Borderline loads can have different outcomes with only small changes in the variables.
 
I have yet to see old powder cause pressure spikes

Due to the skeptism found in the shooting community about old gun powder and high pressure, I have been collecting a number of posted accounts of pressure incidents with old gunpowder. This one has good pictures:

Remington 700 Overpressure with 20 year old factory ammunition

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527519

I'm sighting in my Remington 700 BDL .270 / Nikon 3X9 BDC today, and I decided to rotate old stock ammo. In this case, brand new (20 years ago), 130 grain ammo by a well known US ammunition Company. I bought several boxes of this brand, same lot, back in the early 90's after I discovered how wonderful they worked on woodchucks.
So I'm firing my 2nd round... WHAM! My mild .270 rifle bellows and whacks me in the glasses, odd I thought, as my .270's never kick like that.

The bolt won't open. I mean it is JAMMED. So after 5 min of banging on the bolt with my hand (HARD),it opens Ok, now the bolt draws back hard and the brass feels like its WELDED to the bolt face. I had to use a leatherman tool to pry it out. Rim was damaged, blackened, primer floating around, etc. Bolt appeared ok (Thank the Good Lord for Remington's 3 rings of steel protecting me!), and after switching ammo and using newer stock, the rifle functioned and sighted in 100% perfect. Scared the hell out of me though! This was factory ammo too, not reloads.


Ok, so I called Remington (ammo was early 90's vintage 130 grain Rem bronze point). They only back their ammo for 10 years (expected shelf life according to Remington). Note* I kept this ammo in a cool, dry place, sealed in a US Military ammo can for the past 2 decades. I have ammo from the 50's and 60's that still shoots fine. I guess with gunpowder, it's like rolling dice.

So, I'm glad the rifle is a Remington, as it was strong enough to take the hit without any damage, otherwise it would be my dime (and hide). I had our armorer (LEO), check it out as well. The bolt face appears ok, and I pulled the firing pin, ok as well. Damn strong rifle.
That brass was warped near the rim, I hate to guess what the PSI was, I'm betting well over 80,000 PSI, given how stiff that bolt was to open. If I can get a photo posted, I will.
Now I have several boxes of old .270 ammo to dispose of, as I'm not going to shoot it through my cherished 700 BDL anymore. At least the brass is still good and my right hand is still attached to my arm!
Time to go out and stock up on .270's!!!

Picher; Yes, bore was / is like a mirror. The rifle is a MINT early 80's BDL 700. No rust or pitting. She is one sexy rifle, it was love at first sight... The high gloss wood and rich, deep blue steel.... MMmmmmm!!!!

It was close to 90 on Sunday in Maine, and humid. The ammo has been stored correctly, but, after all, it HAS been 20 years or so. I know my knees are not the same as they were 2 decades ago, so I guess I can't expect the ammo to fair any better. It just caught me off guard, as I stock up on (and shoot), old ammo, and NEVER had any issue. I guess I need to rotate my supply more often...


Here is another:

For those that think old ammo is still ok....
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/38539-those-think-old-ammo-still-ok-print.html
A buddy of mine took his Sig p220 .45 down the range with us the other weekend. He had some old winchester hollowpoints that looked like they had been buried for 30 years. With myself still being new to guns and shooting, i didnt think anything about it.

Well he took one shot and it blow up in his hand. Now he has shot numerous rounds through this gun without a problem, of course they were new. Anyway, noone was hurt but the sig. This is hte way the gun is stuck in. It will not budge. Id say its a nice new paperweight

proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv336%2Fhotsniper%2F100_2685.png

HK Blown up with Brazilian Surplus

http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/90285-Gun-Blown-up
Hello gang i was just wondering if any of you guys have ever blown up a gun while shooting. I had the unfortunate luck of blowing up an HK-91 back around 1989. Me and a buddy of mine were buying cases of mil surplus from a company in ohio at the time in 1000 rd. cases. We had gotten a few cases from said company and never had any issues. Well the last case we got from them was from brazil cbc i believe it was. He called me and said he was having jamming issues with this ammo in his sar-48 bush gun. I told him well i'll go out with you and run some through my 91 it'll eat anything. Well the third round out of the 91 "BOOM" pretty scary it was.
I think you can have or get a bad round or lot of ammo with any manufacturer. That being said the ammo that blew my 91 up was military surplus from brazil. Thats the problem with mil surplus its put onto the market because its deemed not worthy of use for the military of said country.
So you get some good some bad you take your chances. But when your setting off small explosions with each trigger pull in your weapon anything can happen at any time with any manufacturers product.
Just be sure to wear eye and e
ar protection and good gloves are'nt a bad idea either. "**** HAPPENS" you know, don't you just love that saying.
Be safe and have a great weekend.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21886
Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM

'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said:

I picked up some surplus ammo a couple of years ago and had a couple of hang fires. The hammer would drop and a second later the rifle would discharge.
After that happened a couple of times, I decided I wasn't going to shoot that stuff any more. So I took the ammo apart, thinking I'd at least salvage the brass. After I'd pulled all of the bullets and dumped the powder, I tried chucking the primed cases in a vice and then hit the primers with a pin punch and a hammer. I found that some of the primers would "pop" but others would just sizzle and smoke. I'm pretty sure those were my hang fires. It was an interesting experiment.

The last surplus ammo I had looked so bad that I never fired any of it. Like you, I took it apart. The powder was clumped together. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion. I decapped all the brass, burned the primers and powder outside when burning rubbish, and sold the brass and bullets to a scrap company. Recouped a very small amount of initial price. That was the last time I got fooled on surplus ammo crap.

My guess is that most of the foreign countries that are selling surplus goods to the USA, don't care much about how they handle or store the items, as long as it gets on the shipping container and they pocket the purchase price, they are happy. Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware." It especially applies to surplus goods that have a shelf life. Where was it stored? How was it stored? What temperature? Subjected to water or salt air? Exposed to a structure fire? How was it transported? Etc. etc...too many unanswered questions. A deal that is too good to be true, usually is too good to be true.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7756780&postcount=6
Although it's remotely possible that a defective load (very unlikely if factory ammo) or poorly stored ammo that had deterioated. I had some H450 go bad and an "accuracy" load from a .30/06 w/180gr bullet locked up the bolt and removed case looked like a belted magnum...... but gun was unharmed.... primer was blown however and pitted the bolt face...... I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion..... Ammo had only been loaded 6mos earlier... and powder looked and smelled "ok" then.



Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

Catastrophic Failure
http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?43897-Catastrophic-Failure

Had a bad experience a week ago. Went to the range to test fire some handloads through a Springfield M1 and ultimately it blew up.

Details: Rifle - M1 Garand, Springfield manufacture receiver (1942) rebarreled in1947.
Ammo: 3-rounds. Reloaded - full-length sized once fired Federal brass, 163 grain mechanically pulled surplus bullet, Winchester Large Rifle primers, 46.5 grains of IMR4895 powder. Powder was dispensed/weighed using RCBS Chargemaster system calibrated immediately before use. Brass was checked for OA length and was within specs. prior to loading. Bullets were seated to crimping groove but not crimped.

Third round fired and rifle disintegrated through magazine well area.

Later analysis of rifle indicates bolt face fracture and case head failure. Lower front of bolt face sheared off around ejector hole causing passageway for hot gases and fragments to enter magazine well area and blow out stock and triggerguard floorplate. Receiver held and bolt frozen in place. Bolt has been removed and shows fracturing of both locking lugs as well as longitudinal fracture back from ejector hole. Extractor has backed out. Last round/fractured brass still stuck in chamber.
Post 151
Original loads were:

1) Primer seating depth was checked by visual and finger feel.
2) The original powder was old - still in metal can and starting to show brown dust (on retrospect).
3) Pulled bullets were GI AP.


HXP at Perry . . .

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=115939

HXP 77 was the culprit. I won't shoot that stuff. A whole bunch of heavy bolt handle lifts in the 03 matches when it was issued at Perry. I have fired a lot of HXP 70, 72 & 73 with no issues at all, 03's and M1's.

Tombguard, What Ceresco is implying is that while HXP 77 ammo exhibited frequent and sometimes severe issues (excessive bolt lift force, dismounted op rods, duds, hangfires, etc.) there is the concern that other lots will have the same issues but with perhaps lesser frequency. If a manufacturing process doesn't have robust QC practices, more issues are lurking out there like snakes in the grass. I am not saying that you should avoid HXP ammo - I'm just saying that one should be aware that systemically the issues might extend beyond HXP 77 ammo

In the 2007 Perry matches it was '88 dated ammo that gave a lot of 03A3 fits on opening. I keep the saved round I had in rapids beside the silver medal I earned with 29 rounds. Believe me when I tell you it was locking those bolts up TIGHT. (As in roll out of position and beat them open.)


Stiff Bolt Handle on SC 03a3
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=92269&highlight=high+pressure+greek
Took my SC 03a3 to the range a week ago, shooting fairly good groups at 100yds (~2MOA) with unsorted HXP. Had a problem though - occasionally the bolt handle would be VERY difficult to lift open. Never had that before with new production ammo, other sessions with HXP, and never had a problem when dry-firing (snap caps, etc). Didn't break anything evident, and everything APPEARS to function correctly. The brass all looks like I expect (There is some minor pitting in the chamber which shows on the brass, but does not effect extraction), it just felt like I needed a hammer or a crow bar to lift the bolt handle sometimes (but not always). Any ideas as to what is going wrong

Typical HXP problem. It will often be hard to chamber some rounds as well. I had 3 saved rounds in 2006 at the Western Games 1903 match when round 7 could not be extracted from the chamber and no one had a BFH handy. A wooden mallet later helped extract the round. That was in a pristine M1903 Remington with a perfect chamber. All other ammo I feed it functions perfectly. I have a 1903A3 that also has issues with HXP. About 10-20% of some lots are very long in the shoulder. I have a couple rounds that won't chamber in a 1903 at all. It almost looks like I put a No-Go gage in the chamber.

If it is only when you shoot HXP new ammo that is your problem and your answer. It's a problem that has existed with a great many bolt guns since the very first day that CMP began selling HXP ammo and has been much discussed in this forum and others for several years (and see, even today). It was a common complaint among shooters for years at the regional CMP Games and the Nationals when CMP was issuing HXP as the required ammo to use. As I stated before, in 2006, if you walked the line in every relay of the 1903 match you would see shooters having to slap bolts closed and struggle to get bolts open. Many saved rounds in rapid fire were the result and the reason for the many complaints for several years.

I doubt there is a single thing wrong with your rifle or anyone's rifle that is experiencing this problem with HXP in bolt guns. If other ammo feeds and extracts without problems you have the answer already. The long and short of it .....no pun intended....is the ammo, not the rifle. HXP brass is some of the greatest re-loadable brass out there but, it often sucks the first time around through a bolt gun. Nature of the beast.


Chilean 75 kaboom on IMBEL

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=142685

Jeter's right,.....****ty brass. '75 Chilean is notorious for blowing up rifles. This one was freshly built, in spec and headspaced(fortunately not mine). It took approximately 60 rounds to find the 'bad' one. Shooter was relatively unharmed; just a few nicks and cuts. Probably has a world class flinch now. Barrel and bolt looked OK, carrier was not recovered(as in 'no one could find it'). I would not want to be in the way of a carrier that was departing the area at such a speed as to become lost.

*Note* Do not fire Chilean '75.

I wasn't present at the festivities, so I don't have pics of the barrel, etc. I was told by my gunsmith that the barrel was used in the rebuild on another new receiver, as was the bolt, so those parts were undamaged. The extractor was gone of course.

The Chilean '75 has brittle brass that tends to let go, dumping full pressure into the action. I've seen several FALs, HK91's and MG42's destroyed by this ammunition. The picture below(bad as it is)is of a different case,......not the case that destroyed the Imbel pictured above. It did destroy an FAL and I was present at this event. Pretty much the same but without the destruction of the receiver ring; receiver was bulged open at the magwell and the magazine bulged and blown out. Bolt and carrier remained in the rifle, but the topcover was blown off along with the extractor. Again, barrel




An example of powder that went bad in the can:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4702804#post4702804

Bad Bad 7.62x25 Ammo
http://www.ramanon.com/forum/showthread.php?57650-Bad-7-62x25-Ammo

You have probably read my recent thread on a CZ-52 and FTF problems. I expected it was the pistol that had the problem. A few days ago I took it to the range again with the same can of mil-surp ammo after polishing suspect surfaces in the pistol as the possible cause of its problem.

Right away I had the same FTF problem. The slide would not quite close all the way on a round. I had to nudge the slide fully into battery all too often.

So I began to think of other possible causes of the FTF and examined the ammo I was firing. I might have the answer. The surplus 7.62x25 ammo had cracks in the brass of unfired ammo! Often right where a dimple was is in the case that held the bullet head into the case. Sometimes sizeable cracks between the dimples.

Take a look at these unfired cartridges and the cracks. This defective ammo could explain my feeding problem


Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264

I pulled two boxes (100 rounds total) of .308 ammo out of the safe I loaded about ten years ago and found some of them had blue powdery stuff coming out of the necks. I pulled a few rounds down and the inside case walls were powdery blue. The base of the bullets were corroded and blue. None of the other .308 ammo in the safe loaded with Varget has this problem. None of my pistol ammo looks to have anything wrong, but I haven't unloaded any of them. None of my blued guns have any rust. It's not a moist environment issue.

I've never had this happen before. Spent a lot of money loading this ammo for my AR-10 and used new brass, CCI BR2 primers, and N140 powder. It's all junk now.

What made me check it was I shot my AR-10 that's been sitting idle for about 8 years. Same ammo as what's in the boxes I checked. Out of the first ten rounds from the mag that was in the gun three blew primer pockets. I unloaded the rest of the cartridges and they were corroded.

I googled it and found one instance where someone else had the same thing happen


Federal won't warrant their ammunition beyond ten years:

Federal Ammunition :
http://www.federalpremium.com/company/faq.aspx
What is the shelf life of ammo and storage?
Store reloading components and ammunition in a cool, dry place, protected from direct exposure to sunlight. If stored properly there is a 10-year shelf life on loaded ammunition.
 
This was my standard varmint load at the time. My dad did the load development, so I'm not sure where he got the data to start with. I assume he used data for a similarly sized Nosler bullet.

I do know that he preferred IMR 4350 because he could use it for his deer loads in both .243 and 7mm Mag with Nosler Partitions.

If the powder looks and smells good and the charge is accurate I'll bump the bullets .005" and try again in the interest of science. We're only talking about 40 rounds, so it's not a big loss to me if I end up pulling them all.
 
If the powder looks and smells good and the charge is accurate I'll bump the bullets .005" and try again in the interest of science. We're only talking about 40 rounds, so it's not a big loss to me if I end up pulling them all.
__________________

Tell us what happened. If you find evidence of corrosion on the bullets, such as this, let us know

175 SMK's loaded with 1995 ish AA4064

DSCF4140Best175SMKbasecorrosion_zps03beaa6d.jpg

Pulled military bullets.

DSCN1108CorrodedBullets.jpg /DSCF4140Best175SMKbasecorrosion_zps03beaa6d.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
 
I had loads for 7x57 Imp. that were 52 gr. of 4350 with 140 gr. Nosler Partitions. I loaded 100+ and usually shot only 4-6 rounds per hunting season. They lasted for well over a decade. I never had any problems with those shells.
They were only neck-sized when reloaded not full-length resized.
 
Look for brass flowing back into the ejector hole. EjectorMark_01.jpg Starting on the right with lower pressure to high pressure on the left, where primer fell out. Some factory ammo will look like the far right case head. Not my brass. PressureSigns.jpg
 
I'm not as educated about powders as some here, but it has long been my impression that old degraded powder actually produces lower pressures. This may very well be incorrect, so I'm going to follow this thread with an open mind.

I still think one should pull a few, check the powder charge weights, and inspect the powder for signs of break down, also inspect the other components for issues before deciding the powder is the culprit.

After reading this thread, I pulled pulled several rounds of 7 mag dated 7/1I/ 2001. Now I know this is 20 yr. old ammo, but still, 14 years is certainly not fresh ammo in this regard. These were loaded with RL22. The powder smelled great, no red dust, and it wasn't clumped up. The only thing I noticed was that the bullets had developed a serious welding to the necks. I tried pulling the first one straight out with the collet puller, it took a lot of compression on the collet just to hold onto to it, and some extreme force to break it free. I used the seating die to break the weld on the other 2 rounds, and when I pulled them they slid right out nicely.

I have a box of factory Federal 7 mag my son had picked up at a yard sale, this box is really old, like 1993 if I recall. I shot a couple rounds at the range a few months back, the pressures were through the roof, bolt was locked up tight, primers flow was completely flush with the case head, so I quit shooting them. I took them home, pulled a couple to check the powder for break down, which wasn't apparent. So having checked the powder, I decided to just bump the rest to break the weld, which was an obvious condition, then I pulled them part way, then seated them back to the original oal. Last trip to the range I tried them again, and this time they were fine.

GS
 
I pulled two of the bullets and both showed signs of corrosion and exhibited a slight acidic odor. It looks like SlamFire1 was on the mark and I caught this at just the right time. I also measured the charges and both came in at exactly 41.9 grains, so that kind of seals it since these were supposed to be 43.0 grains. I'll definitely be pulling the rest of the lot.

IMG_12561.jpg

IMG_12491.jpg
 
In my experience, bad powder produces hang fires in old GI ammo i shot. Or they dont fire at all. Since you only have 40 rounds, best to pull them i guess. 42.0 gr with Sierra 85 gr bthp has worked well in many 243 win. rifles for me, using Pre-Hodgdon IMR4350 & Dupont powder.
 
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I just finished pulling the rest of the lot. It looks like the charges were light because the powder was stuck to the inner wall of the cases. It's stuck on there hard enough that it needs to be scraped off. I may try to burn it off by igniting the primers - in the chamber, of course.
 
I'm not as educated about powders as some here, but it has long been my impression that old degraded powder actually produces lower pressures. This may very well be incorrect, so I'm going to follow this thread with an open mind.

The source of this horribly incorrect information are "in print" gunwriters. Gunwriters are not required to have or pass any minimum professional standards. Real professions, such as Medical personnal, Engineers, etc, are required to take a certain number of courses at accredited institutions, perform internships, etc, before they are considered as qualified in their professions. The very best gunwriters were Journalist Professors, French majors, or guys who simply carried a gun on their hip. Well, anyone can wear a belt. Gunwriters don't have to have any education, training, or intelligence because their job is primarily advertizing. As long as their infomercials are interesting, and they accurately repeat what they are told by Corporate Advertizing bureaus, they are considered fully qualified in their job. The end result is that these guys don't have the background, and in many instances, intelligence, to sort through myths and legends. As a consequence they are highly susceptible to self serving corporate psuedo science and to accepting falsehoods as truths. And this one, that gunpowder fails safe and benign, is another gunwriter whopper that is totally wrong and false.

The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that is breaking down to become a low energy molecule. Anyone who has taken thermodynamics will realize that this is obvious, everything is breaking down to a lower energy state, but somehow, shooters have been lulled by gunwriters into thinking that the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to our sport.

The first thing you will notice with old gunpowder is a loss of performance. I have chronographed old LC Match 30-06 and the extreme spreads were much higher than new ammunition. At the very end of its lifetime, old gunpowder creates a safety issue. The primary reason gunpowder becomes dangerous is deterioration of the powder grain. The powder grain was engineered to a constant shape and as powder deteriorates, that shape is altered unevenly. This creates “burn rate instability”. For all your cartridges you want a nice and smooth pressure curve. If the burn rate is irregular, because the nitrocellulose powder grain is irregular, instead of a smooth pressure curve there will be irregular pressure curve. These irregularities can interact in such a way that pressures spike. Double based powders are a combination of nitroglycerine (NG) and nitrocellulose, the NG is there for an energy boost, but unfortunately NG causes a new set of problems. NG is not bound to the powder grain but is a liquid and it migrates. Water condensing and evaporating on the powder grain surface wicks NG to the surface of the powder grain over time. This creates a NG rich surface. So, even though the total energy of the grain has decreased due to breakdown, the surface is NG rich and that will spike the initial burn rate. Another thing NG does is accelerate the breakdown of the base nitrocellulose molecule by attacking the double bonds holding the NO molecules. So double based powders have less than half the shelf life of single based (nitrocellulose only) gunpowder. Unfortunately all ionic compounds attack those double bonds, water is a main offender because it is always in air, is a polar covalent ion (acts like an ionic compound) and thus you know the reason you were told to store gunpowder in a cold and dry environment. Incidentally rust is bad and that rust that came out of those old tin cans accelerated the aging of gunpowder, and I think, is why they went to plastic containers.

Gun powder physically breaks down and that red dust you see in old powder cans is finely grained gunpowder. The surface area of that dust is huge. People just don't know the explosive effects of dust, but just google coal dust explosions, cotton dust explosions, wood dust explosions. When carbon based compounds break down into fine dust the potential for an enormous explosion is high and the history of dust explosions is vast. Gunpowder dust will spike the pressure curve and there are a number of blown up guns after which, the gunpowder in pulled ammunition was found to have decayed to a dust.


There is almost no data on the internet because all that was ever needed to be known about gunpowder aging was determined well before WW2. However ball powders did come out at the end of WW2 and I was able to find this data showing that gunpowder at the end of its lifetime will pressure spike. Heat is used to accelerate the age of gunpowder, so what you are seeing is in fact because of “age”, not heat, but it took heat to age the powder quickly. The IMR is a single based and the WC is a double based ball powder.

INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT

Frankfort Arsenal 1962

3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance

To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.

Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.





Pressurevariationsduetostoragetempertures-1.jpg

Heat is the worst enemy of gunpowder. Heat accelerates the breakdown of gunpowders, and it is an exponential function.



Surveillance and in-service proof - the United Nations

http://www.un.org/disarmament/conva...20-Surveillance_and_In-Service Proof(V.1).pdf



Propellantdeteriorationyearsversustemperature_zps29357560.jpg



After reading this thread, I pulled pulled several rounds of 7 mag dated 7/1I/ 2001. Now I know this is 20 yr. old ammo, but still, 14 years is certainly not fresh ammo in this regard. These were loaded with RL22. The powder smelled great, no red dust, and it wasn't clumped up. The only thing I noticed was that the bullets had developed a serious welding to the necks. I tried pulling the first one straight out with the collet puller, it took a lot of compression on the collet just to hold onto to it, and some extreme force to break it free. I used the seating die to break the weld on the other 2 rounds, and when I pulled them they slid right out nicely.

I have a box of factory Federal 7 mag my son had picked up at a yard sale, this box is really old, like 1993 if I recall. I shot a couple rounds at the range a few months back, the pressures were through the roof, bolt was locked up tight, primers flow was completely flush with the case head, so I quit shooting them. I took them home, pulled a couple to check the powder for break down, which wasn't apparent. So having checked the powder, I decided to just bump the rest to break the weld, which was an obvious condition, then I pulled them part way, then seated them back to the original oal. Last trip to the range I tried them again, and this time they were fine.

Thanks for sharing this. A bore obstruction is created when bullets weld to case necks. This can and has blown firearms as this changes the shape of the combustion pressure curve. The whole 1921 "Tin Can" ammunition fisaco was due to bullets welded to case necks. The Army plated bullets with a tin coating, to eliminate bullet fouling. The standard bullet jacket was cupro nickel and that fouled barrels terribly. Shooters were coating the bullets of the period with grease, as that prevented cupro nickle jacket fouling, but grease is messy and attracts dirt, so industry and the Army were looking for a better bullet jacket. Unfortunately for the Army, the tin jacket coating migrated into the brass case necks, a process called cold welding, and soldered the bullet to the case neck. This resulted in blown up rifles at the National Matches. This was incredibly embarrassing at the time due to the high visibility of the National Matches. Instead of fessing up and admitting that they had created unsafe ammunition, the Army lied, created a coverup and blamed greased bullets! Grease was banned from all Army matches and an extensive in print coverup was conducted for decades, by the very guys who made and issued the ammunition!.

I am of the opinion that your weld between bullet and case is due to corrosion caused by nitric acid gas which was outgassed from the powder.
 
SlamFire1 said:
This was incredibly embarrassing at the time due to the high visibility of the National Matches. Instead of fessing up and admitting that they had created unsafe ammunition, the Army lied, created a coverup and blamed greased bullets! Grease was banned from all Army matches and an extensive in print coverup was conducted for decades, by the very guys who made and issued the ammunition!.
So you think Hatcher was complicit in a coverup?
 
Due to the skeptism found in the shooting community about old gun powder and high pressure, I have been collecting a number of posted accounts of pressure incidents with old gunpowder.

The only thing missing from this collection of annecdotal mishaps is any scientific failure analysis that directly links the failure of old ammo to powder degradation.
 
This was incredibly embarrassing at the time due to the high visibility of the National Matches. Instead of fessing up and admitting that they had created unsafe ammunition, the Army lied, created a coverup and blamed greased bullets! Grease was banned from all Army matches and an extensive in print coverup was conducted for decades, by the very guys who made and issued the ammunition!.

So you think Hatcher was complicit in a coverup?

The short answer is yes. I don't want to divert this thread much further, but this Army cover up would have fizzed out decades ago if it were not for General Hatcher and his book: "Hatcher's Notebook". The real question about Hatcher, is: "how could he have not known?"

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Due to the skeptism found in the shooting community about old gun powder and high pressure, I have been collecting a number of posted accounts of pressure incidents with old gunpowder.

The only thing missing from this collection of annecdotal mishaps is any scientific failure analysis that directly links the failure of old ammo to powder degradation

So, what is lacking from the summary results I posted in post 18?
 
I bought a case of 1937 german military ammo that was sold for components only. They were much worse than that. Saved almost all the bullets (196 gr FMJ) but everything else was scrap including the stripper clips. Case of 1800 cost me about $90.00. Lots of work pulling bullets.
 
The bullets were definitely cold welded to the neck by corrosion. You can see the collet marks where I had to gronk on it for grip. I suspect that I may have been able to fire these after bumping to break those welds, but the accuracy would likely have been affected. I need to work up a new load anyway, so the only benefit of shooting these rounds would have been to make some noise. I'm better served by starting from scratch with new powder and bullets for the intended new load.
 
I just want to say think you to Slamfire for that education, post (#18). I read it a couple times, and found it very educational. As I stated, earlier, I don't know a bunch about powders and was under the false impression that as powder degrades, so does it's ability to burn efficiently, thus producing a higher risk of not developing enough pressure, verses high pressure spikes, I see that this is not so.

And the description of how double base powders verses single base powders react when degrading, I found that extremely useful and educational also. I honestly never even considered whether I use a double based verses, a single base until now. This may change which powders I choose for ammunition I know will be stored for longer periods.

So then, can it be thought that if the conditions in which the powder was both stored and load in, to be a significant factor regarding life span? For instance, the climate I store and load in is cool, and very, very low humidity. My powders and ammunition is kept in at temperatures around 75 degrees or cooler, and very likely cooler, since the AC register blows almost directly on the powder and ammo shelves..

Thanks!

GS
 
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