Single-shot rifle in cowboy action

[cluttonfred]

Just like when Ian of Forgotten Weapons enters a modern two-gun match with a Lee-Enfield and a Webley, I've always thought it would be fun to practice with a period-style single-shot rifle and go up against the lever guns just for fun. Two questions....

1. Would a single-shot even be allowed in a cowboy action shooting rifle event?

2. Allowed or not, what would be the slickest, fastest to reload single-shot rifle to use if you had to compete with lever guns?

 

[SVTOhio]

1. I have no idea.
2. I'm thinking a action like the ruger no.1 would be your fastest to reload.

 

[Jim Watson]

I know of no provision in SASS for single shot rifles except in the Plainsman and "Long Range" side matches.

The fastest single shot would likely be a break action with ejector (allowed in Plainsman).

You can cycle a No 1 pretty fast if you know the drill, but the hammerless action would not pass muster. Maybe a Highwall although I have not tried to shoot mine rapid fire.

 

[Aragon]

Just like when Ian of Forgotten Weapons enters a modern two-gun match with a Lee-Enfield and a Webley, I've always thought it would be fun to practice with a period-style single-shot rifle and go up against the lever guns just for fun. Two questions....

1. Would a single-shot even be allowed in a cowboy action shooting rifle event?

2. Allowed or not, what would be the slickest, fastest to reload single-shot rifle to use if you had to compete with lever guns?

1. No, SASS/Cowboy Action Shooting would not allow this. Be aware, many SASS shooters get very upset when someone even asks the sort of (harmless) question that you're asking. I think many are embarrassed about their severely downloaded .38 caliber loads.

2. No single shot rifle could compete with a decent running lever. I suspect the fastest single shot rifle would be a bolt/toggle-bolt that you practiced reloading a great deal.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks for the reply, Aragon. I would have thought that a quest for something authentic, if different, would applauded. Especially as it would have no chance of winning. Can you tell me more?

 

[medic15al]

Check into the NCOWS organization, they are more oriented to authenticity and do not for the most part tolerate SASS gamer attitudes toward others. Very friendly folks in all my dealings with them.

 

[the Real Alpo]

It's simple. They have rules, listing legal guns. People, all the time, want to use a gun not in the rules. IT'S THE SAME SIZE. IT'S THE SAME CALIBER. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

The difference is, it's not in the rules.

The rulebook says that the rifle used, in main match, has to be a lever or a pump, with a tubular magazine and an exposed hammer.

So while you might could convince someone that a Sharps or a Ruger falling block is a "lever action", neither has a tubular magazine, and the Ruger does not have an exposed hammer.

Every once in a while, someone will come up with an idea for a gun, that is not SASS-legal. They throw it out over to the SASS-wire, and ask if they could use it. They'll get several responses saying it is not legal, then someone will be sure to post, "Come down to OUR CLUB. We'll let you use it."

So there is bound to be some club, SOMEWHERE, that will let you do it. If you have one of them Baby Sharps, or maybe an Uberti Baby Rolling Block, in 45 Colt or 44/40. It won't be legal, by the rulebook, but they would probably let you do it.

Just remember - it has to be "pistol caliber". No 45/70 or 40/60 Sharps or 38/55.

It's the same reason why double actions are not allowed. DA was around, back then. Star made DA cap and ball. Colt made DA in two different calibers. S&W had a DA out in 1881. They are period correct.

But they are not legal, by the rulebook. So you can't use them.

 

[Jim Watson]

SASS does indeed allow single shot rifles, but only in the Plainsman event.
And you have to shoot a pair of C&B revolvers and a double or single shotgun. It is not a cheap way out.

The Long Range Rifle event has a single shot division and some are timed.

 

[Aragon]

Thanks for the reply, Aragon. I would have thought that a quest for something authentic, if different, would applauded. Especially as it would have no chance of winning. Can you tell me more?

Oh, I agree with you... The CAS shooters are a very welcoming group unless you ask them about any possible change to their existing program.

I once asked on their forum if there was ever a thought of possibly allowing rimfire S/A revolvers and lever rifles with perhaps a 20 gauge shotgun for adults? They became downright rude. They were so nasty that I just had to laugh it off.

I think two things bothered them about my question. First, most would move to rimfire I suspect. Second, I actually do think they're self-conscious about the low power loads they shoot today...

I also asked about shooting Wild Bunch (after the movie) firearms (M1911, lever rifle and Model 1912 shotgun) at a regular SASS match? I think my question caused several heart attacks and a handful of strokes.

That's when I lost interest in CAS.

 

[Aragon]

Check into the NCOWS organization, they are more oriented to authenticity and do not for the most part tolerate SASS gamer attitudes toward others. Very friendly folks in all my dealings with them.

SASS seems to be more about dressing-up and socializing rather than actual history and shooting.

 

[Aragon]

It's simple. They have rules, listing legal guns. People, all the time, want to use a gun not in the rules. IT'S THE SAME SIZE. IT'S THE SAME CALIBER. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

The difference is, it's not in the rules...

So? It's not as if they would be competing for prizes or doing damage to steel targets. I really like how (for example) USPSA welcomes almost all shooters. If you're a cowboy shooter, great! They'll even adopt as much of the SASS rules as possible for cowboy shooters in areas like different categories of firearms, etc.

Getting angry because I asked if it would be OK for me to use Wild Bunch-approved firearms at a regular SASS match (because there are no nearby WB matches) was bad form and a huge turn-off.

 

[WestKentucky]

Oh, I agree with you... The CAS shooters are a very welcoming group unless you ask them about any possible change to their existing program.

I once asked on their forum if there was ever a thought of possibly allowing rimfire S/A revolvers and lever rifles with perhaps a 20 gauge shotgun for adults? They became downright rude. They were so nasty that I just had to laugh it off.

I think two things bothered them about my question. First, most would move to rimfire I suspect. Second, I actually do think they're self-conscious about the low power loads they shoot today...

I also asked about shooting Wild Bunch (after the movie) firearms (M1911, lever rifle and Model 1912 shotgun) at a regular SASS match? I think my question caused several heart attacks and a handful of strokes.

That's when I lost interest in CAS.

Look into zoot shooters. It's a few decades more modern than cowboy games. In it you play Chicago mobsters and Elliot Ness.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks, all, for the feedback, and especially WestKentucky for the zoot shooter suggestion. I have been looking at 1930s revolvers and the like since reading the Grimnoir series by Larry Correia (of Monster Hunters and "H&K because you s*ck and we hate you" fame). I'd still like to shoot CAS someday, though as a New Englander I'd have to work out some sort of Eastern greenhorn just arrived out West sort of character. Zoot shoot would give me the opportunity to just play one of my grandfathers.

 

[Coyote3855]

I shot SASS for a number of years. I'm sorry that some of you have encountered rudeness at local events. Having managed local club shoots and assisted with the Hell on Wheels Regional Match, I know it's difficult to do. Our local matches usually had 3-5 stages and 60-70 shooters. The regional had 10 stages plus side matches for derringer, pocket pistol, and long range.

We would have similar questions: "I don't care about winning so why can't I just reload my one percussion pistol on the clock?" Because we have 80 shooters in 4 squads. Stages are designed with time in mind so that the match flows smoothly and shooters don't get backed up waiting for the next squad to finish a stage. We assume the average shooter will finish a stage in 30 seconds. It will take you minutes to load your cap and ball and throw the whole timing thing out the window. That's why we have rules.

"I just want to shoot the match. Why do I have to dress up? It's silly." You can usually get by at most matches with blue jeans, a work shirt, boots and a cheap hat. Yeah, for some people, the costumes are very important and contribute to their enjoyment and fantasies. That's whey we have rules. No ball caps. No sneakers. But our club was very welcoming to new shooters. If they showed up tractor caps and running shoes, we'd let them shoot and advise them how meet the minimum costume rules.

"I want to shoot my 1911 in a regular match because you don't have a Wild Bunch match." Even though SASS doesn't shoot for money or big prizes, it can very competitive and you have an advantage with a semi-auto. (Although I'd put the top shooters up against the average guy with a 1911.) That's why we have rules.

CluttonFred. An acceptable costume of Eastern Dude will get you into most SASS matches. Snug old suit from Goodwill, lace up shoes, and a plug hat would work great.

Again, I apologize that some SASS clubs are rude and unwelcoming. I've seen the same at IPSC and IDPA on occasion by some individuals. I don't understand it because the future of these sports depend on attracting fresh blood.

 

[cluttonfred]

Thanks, Coyote3855, for your thoughtful response, I am sure that, like in any sport, a few overzealous competitors can make the vast majority of folks with manners and perspective look bad. I is too bad, considering how common single-shot rifles of all sorts likely were in the West, that they can't be accommodated, but I understand completely your comments about logistics and timing. I only have one question...what's a "plug hat?"

 

[the Real Alpo]

It's another name for a doiby.

 

[Aragon]

I shot SASS for a number of years. I'm sorry that some of you have encountered rudeness at local events. Having managed local club shoots and assisted with the Hell on Wheels Regional Match, I know it's difficult to do. Our local matches usually had 3-5 stages and 60-70 shooters. The regional had 10 stages plus side matches for derringer, pocket pistol, and long range.

We would have similar questions: "I don't care about winning so why can't I just reload my one percussion pistol on the clock?" Because we have 80 shooters in 4 squads. Stages are designed with time in mind so that the match flows smoothly and shooters don't get backed up waiting for the next squad to finish a stage. We assume the average shooter will finish a stage in 30 seconds. It will take you minutes to load your cap and ball and throw the whole timing thing out the window. That's why we have rules.

"I just want to shoot the match. Why do I have to dress up? It's silly." You can usually get by at most matches with blue jeans, a work shirt, boots and a cheap hat. Yeah, for some people, the costumes are very important and contribute to their enjoyment and fantasies. That's whey we have rules. No ball caps. No sneakers. But our club was very welcoming to new shooters. If they showed up tractor caps and running shoes, we'd let them shoot and advise them how meet the minimum costume rules.

"I want to shoot my 1911 in a regular match because you don't have a Wild Bunch match." Even though SASS doesn't shoot for money or big prizes, it can very competitive and you have an advantage with a semi-auto. (Although I'd put the top shooters up against the average guy with a 1911.) That's why we have rules.

CluttonFred. An acceptable costume of Eastern Dude will get you into most SASS matches. Snug old suit from Goodwill, lace up shoes, and a plug hat would work great.

Again, I apologize that some SASS clubs are rude and unwelcoming. I've seen the same at IPSC and IDPA on occasion by some individuals. I don't understand it because the future of these sports depend on attracting fresh blood.

First, the SASS people I have met at matches are VERY nice and VERY welcoming. One day (after shooting a 3-Gun match) I went over and watched them for a bit. As I was leaving, someone ran after me, frantically making sure that all my questions had been answered. On the other hand, quite a few on the SASS forum are downright obnoxious/rude.

The two times I was treated poorly in person was when I innocently asked about possible rimfire for adults and later asked if I could shoot a SASS match with my WB gear and garb.

I still don't understand your "That's why we have rules" answer with respect to the WB shooting? The WB Shooting Association is owned by SASS. It requires contestants to wear garb that would not be out of place at a SASS match and to have an alias. The guns/ammo fired would not harm the targets -- they also wouldn't slow down a match like a cap and ball revolver would. Finally, they wouldn't be competing against the SASS shooters.

On the other hand, if SASS shooter showed-up at a USPSA or Steel Challenge match, they would be warmly welcomed to compete. Sure, they would get smoked, but they would be welcomed to shoot using their single action revolvers. It's quite likely their score would be noted by itself as "cowboy" or something along those lines.

I suspect SASS's big problem is they know that if they allowed a WBers to shoot SASS matches that many current SASS shooters would migrate over to WB. Similarly if SASS allowed a .22LR/.410 class for adults, I think many would migrate to that as well. THAT'S why SASS has rules.

It would be great if SASS had as much confidence in its shooting discipline as USPSA or Steel Challenge does, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. SASS reminds me a bit of NASCAR -- anything for a buck.

 

[cluttonfred]

It's another name for a doiby.

Ahh, thanks, though to a New Englander it's "dehby" not "doiby.". ;-)

 

[Laphroaig]

Any time you get a group of men competing, it brings out the worst in a small percentage of them. They take it more seriously than it was ever meant to be. I've found that to be true, no matter what the sport or game.

Laphroaig

 

[aarondhgraham]

This was straight from the mouth of their founders,,,

This was straight from the mouth of their founders,,,
I had asked why they didn't allow .22 fieryarms.

This answer was from one of the founders:
"It keeps the riff-raff out."

I substituted "riff-raff" for the very crude name he used.

I've been a SASS member since 1995,,,
And I have had many great experiences playing in it,,,
But never forget that they designed the game to exclude low income people.

They like that it costs a few grand to outfit yourself,,,
It's economic exclusion plain and simple.

Aarond

.

 

[Aragon]

This was straight from the mouth of their founders,,,
I had asked why they didn't allow .22 fieryarms.

This answer was from one of the founders:
"It keeps the riff-raff out."

I substituted "riff-raff" for the very crude name he used.

I've been a SASS member since 1995,,,
And I have had many great experiences playing in it,,,
But never forget that they designed the game to exclude low income people.

They like that it costs a few grand to outfit yourself,,,
It's economic exclusion plain and simple.

Aarond

I'm not sure if that's true, but it's an interesting view. I suspect to actually shoot SASS I would have to buy a second single action revolver, but that wouldn't be a big deal. Certainly less expensive to gear-up for SASS than 3-Gun...