Single Shot Target BP Pistol?

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Steve Swartz

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Can't seem to get the idea of a "competition grade" (moa @ 50 yards) BP pistol out of my head.

Crazy?

Heard of some old Belgian "under hammer" designs in .36 cal . . . didn't T-C used to make a .44 "target" Contender at one time . . . ?

Anyone try making a "modern" (in-line?) single shot pistol? Is 1/2" at 50 yards feasible in any BP caliber (pistol . . . 50 cal minies probably out)?

Steve Swartz
 
T/C used to make the Patriot. It's a sidelock percussion target pistol. I have one in .45 and am madly in love with the cute little thing. Recently I became aware that they also made it in .36 but I have yet to find one. The underhammers are some of the most accurate guns that I know of. They're hard to find though. There's a company in Europe making them but they're quite pricey. I don't remember their name, but look for a thread about underhammers and you'll see a link.
 
+1 on the T/C Patriot. I have two of them. They are the most accurate BP pistols I've ever seen. Truly top-quality guns.
 
Single shot target pistol

Feinwerkbau makes a fine target pistol.Shoots a .360 ball and the rear sight is elev adj only.It is an underhammer and called History #1 and a very high quality piece too.ISS handles it. Getting about 2" at 50yds is considered "religious" :) Ernierod
 
1/2" at 50 Yards

Anyone try making a "modern" (in-line?) single shot pistol? Is 1/2" at 50 yards feasible in any BP caliber (pistol . . . 50 cal minies probably out)?
Click to expand...

Yes of coarse. Start with a .50 caliber single shot pistol and fire only ONE shot. Now you have the elusive 1/2" at 50 yards:neener:
 
Les Baer will charge you $200+ extra for a 1911 that is guaranteed to have shot into 1.5" at 50 yards. The most accurate production centerfire is probably the SIG P210 which usually comes with a test target under 2" at 50 metres.

I would say 1/2" at 50 yards is not reasonable for any conventional pistol. One of the single shots that is more like a short rifle, yes, but not something that looks like a pistol to me.

That Feinwerkbau, the Hege-Siber, maybe the Pedersoli-Mang muzzleloaders will shoot with most centerfires and make a possible on the NRA 50 yard target, though. The TC Patriot would come close to them, it is the only target muzzleloader I have shot and it was darned accurate.
But 1/2" at 50 yds? Forget it.
 
Mea Culpa

Ooops what a bonehead . . . chalk it up to a "math error" (went in the wrong direction) . . . of course outshooting a match Bullseye gun is not possible with a muzzleloader.

1.5" x 2 (instead of divided by 2) equals 3" (at 50 yards) was what I meant to ask- are 3" five shot groups possible with black powder and cast balls?

What is currently considered "Extreme Accuracy" for muzzleloading pistols?

And- how is this achieved? Are "Match Grade" bullets (swaged hollow base wadcutters?) available? Percussion caps vs. 209 primer systems? Pyrodex vs. true black powder?

Again my apologies- obviously a newcomer to this sport/obsession- but would appreciate any help/advice/tips you can offer.

TIA

Steve Swartz
 
Practice and Consistency

As with all marksmanship. Being consistent with everything will bring down group size. Same exact amount of powder, same seating force, same ball weight, same bore cleanliness, same caps, etc. Take the human factor out (assume you are a master class bullseye shooter) I would think most single shot pistols would be capable of less than 4" groups at 50yards.

Once you've mastered that, try it with a rock lock. The ability to hold on target during the lock delay.

But man ain't it kewl.....

The only way to proove or disproove is pushing patches downrange.

Go get an inexpensive traditions trapper and see what it'll do. Once you have proven your ability to push it to the machine limits. Spend lots of money with a custom barrel in a smaller .36 or .40 caliber.

Where to start: (what a kewl loading stand by the way)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=61449438
 
The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Assn. is the largest organization and holds national championship matches at Friendship, Indiana.
It appears from a quick look at their site that they have many different classifications from traditional to futuristic pistols, and even revolvers.

Quote:
"Colonial-period muskets, schuetzen rifles, and peep-sighted caplocks are on one side of a concrete wall, while Remington-style caplock revolvers, Kentucky plowhandle pistols, and futuristic-looking unlimited-class pistols are shot on the other side."

Quoted from the bottom half of this page:
http://www.nmlra.org/00_shoots.htm

Quote:
"...It take awhile to become familiar with Frendship and the people that make up the people that attend the National Matches. The biggest majority of people that attend Friendship are competitive shooters, and if you are a ture competitor the you are there to win. Winners have always done what is nessesary to win and I hate to bust any bubbles here but at Friendship you will find inlines on just about every firing line except on the primitive side. Not only are there inlines on the line but alot of them hold national records going back many years. Most of these are either custom jobs or home cooked up designs by those trying to gain an edge so they could WIN!!!!!!!!!!! Reguardless of what you think on an inline if they were not a better design we would still be shooting flinters. My preference is a sleek flintlock both on the line and in the woods but when I get ready to compete at Friendship on the pistol line for the National Championship I will have an inline in my hand. This is part of sport...."

Posted by Bama:
http://americanlongrifles.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9175&whichpage=1
 
Mad Turner

As Motorcyle Dan says, it is important to reproduce every shot as near as possible to the last one so that muzzle velocity is consistent and the way to do that is to load each chamber in the same consistent way. Of course the big deal is YOU, yes YOU, the only variable is you, so you have to work on yourself also so that you aim consistently and squeeze consistently. If you watch 'Enemy at the gate' he talks to himself all the time telling himself that he is calm and not afraid so he keeps KEWL! !
 
Dan is right about consistency. You also need to be able to tinker incessantly and try endless combinations of lube, patches, balls, bullets, powder weights, etc.

He's also right about the Trapper. I have one and it easily shoots with my T/C Patriot and has a better trigger. It's an inexpensive way to get out shooting for accuracy, though Patriots can still be found on the used market also.

BTW, Feinwerkbau is now making an awesome 1858 revolver! I handled one a couple weeks back at the gun show. What a stunning piece of work. They're known for producing some of the world's most accurate guns. If this revolver keeps up that tradition, I think it's going to be a contender. I don't remember the price offhand, but it was more than I had to spend at the time, or I'd be giving a range report on it instead of just drooling.
 
Steve Swartz

Gurus:

Traditions also makes an inline 50 (with 4 3/4" barrel, 1 in 28" twist, with muzzle brake/compensator) called the "Buckhunter Pro."

Main source of error aside* (the human "software"), would an inline vs. sidelock ignition, 5" longer barrel (not sure if they are counting muzzle brake or not), and 1 in 28" vs. 1 in 20" twist rate have more accuracy potential?

Assuming equal or better trigger, and equal (probably better) ergonomics and sights . . . for about $100 more,t he "buckhunter" seems to offer a higher level of performance than the "Trapper."

Thoughts?

Steve Swartz
*carefully selected bullets, individually weighed (not metered) charges, absolutely uniform primer seating, ditto for bullet seating over charge, etc.
 
Steve Swartz

Dang make that "14 3/4" barrel"; and not implying load issues are the greatest source of error- the person is but assume the loading issues are all taken care of as well . . . sorry
 
There's quite a difference between a hunting pistol and a target pistol. A true competition target pistol is designed to be held with one hand.

There's a wonderfully accurate pistol located at the bottom of this page that comes in 4 calibers:

www.Kahnkegunworks.com
 
Steve, I've been eyeing the Buckhunter and wondering that myself. Looking at it realistically though, it's meant to be a hunting pistol. It's designed for tossing conicals or sabots with a stout charge behind them. I haven't shot one so I can't say one way or another about accuracy, but I doubt it's going to be competition grade. Hopefully we can get some feedback from folks who own them.

I also have doubts about the trigger. Hunting guns rarely have sweet, light triggers on them. The Trapper can be adjusted down to mere ounces if you wish, though it has too much overtravel for my taste. One of these times I'm going to see if there's a way to limit overtravel.

An underhammer pistol would be ideal, but with Blue Grouse no longer offering them, the only options that I know of are costly.
 
More Info-Need More Info

Plink and All:

I pretty much figured I would have to do quite a bit of "action smoothing" and experiment a whole lot with charge/projectile workup if I started with something like the Buckhorn.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I think maybe I should offer up a little more information about what I am looking for, and throw myself at your mercy for additional information in return.

Additional Info:
Personally, I have quite a few multi-thousand dollar competition pistols, and am a fanatic competitor in NRA Bullseye and International Air and Free pistol (not so fanatic about Standard or Center Fire). I understand the technological limitations of black powder- that is actually part of the atttraction- but would like to get as close to a Match Grade competition arm as I can.

Propositions for Comment:
I have been trying to "do my homework" (primarily on the web) and have not found what I am looking for- I guess- yet. I think I have figured out the following issues/premises: ?

1) My New Army in .44 is never going to cut it; single shot is way to go
2) .50 cal seems to be most prevalent (and promising)
3) Round Ball is a big limitation/conicals are better but WEIGH a ton and this provides it's own limitations
4) Side lock is a huge limitation- but many side locks have set triggers (a plus)
5) "Club Foot" grips (sorry Trapper) are a limitation- prefer anatomical grips
6) Drilled and tapped for 1" rings would be a plus
7) Custom guns or (extensively) modified current arms like Buckhorn are only available options?

O.K., last but not least, are there any formal competitions (metallic silhouette?) that would allow/require muzzleloading arms of "cutting edge accuracy" (the type I am seeking); if so, what are those folks shooting?

Sorry about the length of the post- and Thank You all so very much for your help in my quest.
 
I am NOT a muzzleloader but

The NMLRA has matches for a wide variety of muzzleloading gun types.
http://www.nmlra.org/

There is an International Muzzleloading championship with a large number of Divisions to keep similar types together, flint, percussion, smoothbore, rifled, rifle, pistol, revolver, musket, fowler, shotgun, military, etc.

The Feinwerk mentioned above is at
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules/cms/usage.main.php5?cPageId=117
I would expect good results from an underhammer built by FWB. Most of the late muzzleloading era benchrest rifles were underhammers for fast ignition.

There was once a US made straight line striker fired percussion pistol with a 1911 grip shape. I think it may have been from Alex Hamilton at Ten-Ring but he does not now list it.

I think somebody once built a muzzleloading upper that went ON a real 1911 frame.

The Hege-Siber although a traditional sidelock got a terriffic review in American Rifleman. They make it in .44 but the original Siber and the NRA test piece were .33s for patched ball.

I don't think I want to shoot a .50 with slugs through a long offhand match. Don't you do better with a .22 than .45? I do.
 
Target only, go small caliber

I concur with others that think a smaller caliber would be better if seeking a bullseye quality match single shot pistol.

If you have built competition pistols, you know the value of balance and comfort. I'd consider using something like a wad of clay to figure your best grip. Then go about making a wood stock in that form. Sort of XP-100 style. I would do an inline type with a cocking bolt that must be pulled back.

Okay that said I would expect accuracy to the degree you seek is indeed available. Consistency in black powder can be had, Just cost a little bit more dicipline.

Go fer it and send us pictures as you get done
 
Steve, have you looked into Pedersoli's Mortimer and Carlton underhammer? I haven't shot the Carlton, but the Mortimer is a stunning performer and has taken a number of medals. The underhammer has an advantage in locktime so I imagine it would be quite accurate also.
 
Thanks All!

Looks like there are a lot more choices available than I originally thought; actually, there are a ton of "reproduction" target guns

Pedersoli LePage, Mang, Charles Moore, Kuchenreuter, and Carleton (underhammer) are all "Reproduction" designs that are available in different calibers (.36 seems to be dominant) and percussion/rock-lock. Include the Feinwerkbau Billinghurst Underhammer and the Hege-Siber in .33 in the "production line" offerings.

Custom gunshops also make target arms (Andy Baumkircher and others).

These are all "Reproduction Arms" used for competitions (there are international level competitions for rifle and pistol muzzleloaders) that seems to require reproductions.

Have several emails out for pricing and availability on these arms. Have no idea what the price range will be- but suspect "Reproduction Arms" manufactured in Europe will be ex$pen$ive. Sidelocks and underhammers are the rule of the day.

As for modern designs . . . this seems to be sparser territory. I was originally looking for something like a Thompson-Center inline design in .36 drilled and tapped for scope/dot with target grade trigger action and barrel/rifling suitable for target work. This concept seems to be an elusive beast; and there does not appear to be any competitions that allow such equipment.
 
As to that last, I THINK you are right, but before you give up on the high tech side, check with NMLRA, they MIGHT have modern muzzleloader events. But the traditional stuff will be more usual.

I shoot BPCR and the regulations keeping it true to 19th century designs are strong. Doesn't bother me, I shoot a Winchester Single Shot made in 1899.
 
.5 MOA Fiction?

Re: Starter52 asserting the fiction factor, I personally have shot .10 at 50 yards with my T/C Contender in .22LR MATCH with a T/C 2.5 - 7 scope. My shots were so tight that the DNR officer could barely measure it in order to be able to sign and date the targets. Finally, he had me shoot a fresh target circle with each shoot to be able to assure that I was not intentionally putting them off the paper altogether. Suffice it to say, after I fired 25 shots into the very X of each of the 25 circles on the page, he gladly signed the target. Then, I shot a smiley-face into a target. He gladly signed that and hung it at the range. Fiction? T/C warrants MOA accuracy for life, on all of their firearms, even their BP firearms. That is not fiction. That aside, 1 year before I bought my T/C Contender, I too would have said fiction.

Doc2005
 
I have two Remington XP-100 pistols (old style center grip) in .308. One is open sighted and the other is a scoped heavy barrel. The scoped one will group .65 at 100 yards all day long with mid power 165 grain handloads. That works out to well under .5 at 50 yards also.

None of my black powder pistols will group into .5 at 50 yards though. That isn't to say it can't be done, just that I don't own one capable of it, at least not in my hands. I'd give my right one for a BP gun that would though! :)
 
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