Single Stage users... got some questions for ya

[scythefwd]

As title reflects, here they go:

1. How long does it usually take you to fully load 50-60 rounds? (Mine took me 4 hours, but there was a lot of fussing in there like changing drop weights for load workup, weighing every charge as I was getting too much variance in my drops for me to be comfortable, setting up dies for first use,etc.)

2. Any tips or tricks you have learned to speed things up? I'm not in this for the fun of it, I'm in it to save money (I live 1.5 hours from the range so I don't get there very often to begin with)

3. What level of variance do you consider acceptable in OAL, charge, etc. I'm now (not during the load workup) throwing within .1 grain of where I want to be. During load workup I was being a perfectionist and every load is exact. I'm seeing .003 or is inch variance on my COAL. I suspect this is due to differences in the bullets and am going to live with that right now. They are slightly over max COAL from my manual, but they chamber correctly in my rifle and they aren't into the lands yet. My cases are all trimmed to max length.

Thanks for any guidance... I can be a bit of a perfectionist at times and I'm trying not to be too picky here on my loads. It isn't worth the cost savings if it takes me away from my family for 4 hours to do 3 boxes of ammo. I suspect I can cut the loading time in half once I get settled on a load. I won't have to adjust my powder measure every 12 rounds (which also caused me to measure every round as I wanted to make sure there wasn't any drift in my throws due to a loose set screw). Case prep takes me about 1/2 hour or so for deprime, size, trim. Takes another 20 minutes to prime (I'm slow... need to uniform some of my pockets).

I am using a power drill to trim. Any other suggestions are welcome. I'd rather be slow than missing a finger, but there is a limit to my patience when it takes me away from my family as I'm sure you guys can understand.

 

[rfwobbly]

For no-trim pistol 60 rounds maybe 1-1/2 hours.
For rifle (with trim) 60 rounds maybe 2-1/4 hours.

Sounds like 1) your powder measure could have operator error, 2) could need additional accessories, or 3) your stick powder is making your PM misbehave. All those are fixable issues.

As to the measure....
Since all PMs dispense volume when what you want is weight, the density has to be constant. You can easily get constant density by adding constant vibration. By "constant" I mean a knock every 30 seconds, or a continuous vibration, or simply knocking the PM with the op crank every time.

Powder baffles do help. Do a Google on "Uncle Nick Powder Baffle" and build your own.

Never weigh the first 10 drops, the density isn't constant. Just put them back in the hopper.

When adjusting the PM, never weigh a single powder drop. Instead drop 10 and average. So if you want 7.8gr, then drop 10 loads and set your scale for 78.0gr.

As to powder.....
Ask if there is a ball powder that will work in your caliber better.


Hope this helps!

 

[Thedub88]

Dont try to do all steps in a single day

1. Collect a huge bucket of fired brass
2. Size/decap the whole bucket.
3. Sit in front of tv and Prime all your brass (I use hand held primer)
Once you have all this done, you can start loading.

4. Flair case / fill with powder (weighing it of course) and put powder filled case in a tray
5. Once you have 50 or 100 cases, insert bullet and seat it to length
6. Run all with lee factory crimp die for uniformity (optional)

 

[243winxb]

50-38spec.- 1hr. COL for a single sage press-.005" max. Powder-depending on type, .1 to .3gr. variation. If the measure cuts a stick powder, dump that one.

I'd rather be slow than missing a finger

Decapping pin thru finger nail, not fun.

 

[scythefwd]

rf - I figured the stick powder was some of the problem with my measure. The other was me (not arguing there...my technique has improved a bit since then). I'm using h4895 because I'm loading for both a .308, which will handle lots o things, and a garand and it's picky powder requirements. I've gotten my throw on my PM down to <.1 grain, so that's pretty consistent. I knock before every throw, BUT I can feel myself cutting the powder. A ball powder may be more consistent.

I would measure a the average of 10 throws, but I was looking for consistency for every round. The average of that could still have your throws off by .3 grains in each direction and average out correctly. Since I was doing load workup... I wanted to be precise as possible. I could see 2.5 hours after I settle on a load, but I was changing charges every 12 rounds. While my scale can handle 420 grains of weight, I'm not sure it can handle that much volume (the measuring pan is fairly shallow).

As for the constant vibration, my vibratory cleaner is on a lower shelf of my bench... maybe I should leave that running during that step Just move my scale off the bench and onto a shelf above the bench on the wall.

 

[highlander 5]

in my single stage days I could load 100 rds an hour,but I performed one stage at a time.
In other words trim cases,deburr,size, charge with powder then seat bullet and crimp if needed.

 

[rfwobbly]

No PM in the world is dead-nuts on, all you can ever hope to do is reduce the variation to a useable amount. I don't know how you could ask for better than < 0.1gr relative to the 35 or so grains you must be measuring. I'd have to say you've arrived, brother !!

A clean-burning ball powder I've used that has application in 308 is TAC. You might borrow a handful and try that. The 4895 is probably more accurate though.

If you can't average 10 drops, then try 5. I simply use 10 because I mostly do pistol at 4-7gr. (That and I don't want the math to get above my pay grade. ) The idea is the same as "2 heads are better than one". Multiples are always "gooder".

Some people use cheap fish tank air pumps attached to the PM.

 

[Funshooter45]

As mentioned, for single stage, do it in batches. You get used to that one particular movement and get more efficient at it. For my rifles, I will gather up ever single case I can find one day and size them all, then run them through the trimmer, then Prime them. Then I store them in a plastic bag for when I want to load them. It's pretty easy to charge 40 cases in a row, even when you're weighing every charge. And then it's simple to seat a bullet 40 times in a row.

When I'm testing powder weights, I definitely weigh every load. I will only be throwing that weight 3-5 times, then going up by half a grain, so it makes sense to weigh them all just like you. On those rare occasions when I want to load up 50 rounds all the same, then it's possible to not weigh all of them. That will depend on the powdre and the measure. I have un-retired my old Lee Perfect Powder meaasure because it's more consistent than my Lyman 55 for certain powders. There are several powders that one of my measures will meter out +/- 0.1 gr usually with a max variation of 0.2 gr for long stick rifle powders. However, if you really want to speed things up, develop a load for a spherical powder like TAC or W-760. Those things are spot on when dropped out of my measures.

 

[scythefwd]

rf - I have played with it a little bit since I did the loads. That day I was .2-.3 grains over all variance (usually .1 under - .2 over, I can actually feel .1 gr worth of the powder when I pinch it to move it back into the hopper). Today, weighing every throw, I was withing .1 total variance every throw for the few dozen I did. About half of those were dead nutz on. Throwing 38-42 grains once I decide on a load. I have 60 rounds to take to the range and test out to see which my rifle likes best I actually have 80, but 20 of those are pretty much just for brass.

I have a couple of places I could be more efficient.

I was sizing 20 at a time since my bench is so small (I'll move up to 50 - 60) for now on. What I mean by that is this...

Line up 20, spritz with one-shot, size and toss into tumbler... next 20.
Doing all 50-80 at a time will be faster.

I did trim and prime all at the same time... trim 60, then prime 60 (by hand) so I just have to accept that as my working pace.

I took the most inefficient route for charging. I would charge, weigh, and then seat the bullet per loaded round one at a time.

I have a loading block, but I was being very particular with my first set of 60 for two reasons.. I was working up loads and wanted definite delineations for charges AND I wanted to make sure I wasn't skipping a step anywhere. Charging all 50-60 at a time and then seating the bullet all at the same time will speed me up a bit. I don't think it will take me 10-15 minutes to do all 60 at once for seating. Charging will still take some time to truly build some confidence. Once I have thrown 100 charges at my set charge with little variance... then I'll probably stop weighing them all (though IF I can keep it .1 gr accurate high or low, I probably won't top them off and yes I know that's .2 total variance) and only weight every 10--15.

 

[scythefwd]

fun - I'll consider that but I am trying to keep it to one powder for the time being. If I can find a spherical powder suitable for the garand... I'll see what I can do.

 

[Afy]

I weigh every single charge and try and get to as close as possible to 0 variance on powder when loading for accuracy. Same applies for OAL. I can load about 1 round a minute for my 6 BR.

 

[cfullgraf]

scythefwd,

First, you will need to find a process that works for you. You will find lots of folks use a single stage press a little differently, although the basic steps are the same. As you get more comfortable with the process and your methods, your speed will improve.

My process...

I resize, expand the mouth (handgun only in a separate step), measure and trim (rifle only), and clean brass shortly after shooting. I usually have no more than a couple hundred pieces to process and I can usually process 100 cases in 5 to 10 minutes not counting tumbling time. If lots of cases require trimming it may take a little longer. I only trim cases that are over length. Each step is done in a batch. I do not move on until all cases have been process through the current step.

The cases are stored until a future time.

When I decide to reload, I prime the cases with a hand primer, charge the cases, seat the bullet, and crimp (handgun only). Again, this is done in batches and usually in 100 to 200 in a batch as I do not have bench space for much more at a time.

I can flip the lights on in my reloading room then flip the lights off one hour later with 100 cartridges loaded and everything cleaned up and put away. So, about 100 rounds per hour.

Consistency of operation is the key to minimizing the variation of the output from your powder. Do it the same way every time. I try to minimize vibration of the measure when dispensing powder. I operate the handle smoothly with no knocking at either end of the stroke. My measure is even mounted on a stand separate from my press mount so that vibrations from the press do not affect the measure.

Some folks wrap or knock the measure at the end of each stroke to help settle the powder column in the measure. The key is, do it the same way every time.

I am a big supporter of powder baffles, but they need to be installed correctly. The line between the center of the holes in the powder baffle must be parallel to the rotational axis of the drum. You do not want a baffle hole directly over the cavity. Others have success without the baffle.

The size of the variation in powder charges depends on the size of powder charge. I get variations similar to those already mentioned.

Hope this helps.

 

[THe Dove]

I usually average about 200 pistol rounds every 1.5 - 2 hours.

Rifle rounds are about 40 per hour.

This is a rough estimate though, Sometimes I make better and sometime I make slower times....

The Dove

 

[scythefwd]

THe Dove - is that including case prep?

 

[THe Dove]

No - that does not include case prep. Sorry for not clarifying that.

I use a RCBS Rock Chucker 2 press I bought in a kit about 20 years ago. I love it and have tweeked my procedure, for me, and it works very well for me. Everyone has their own procedure and no 2 men are alike. Find your own and rock-n-roll.

The Dove

 

[Strykervet]

I think the bigger issue is your outlook on it. You are using a single stage press to save money? You will have to trade your time for money then, you better learn to enjoy it or find something else to do. You could sell junk on Craigslist for money to buy ammo and save more time.

A single stage press allows me to make obscenely accurate and consistent ammo. I can't buy ammo like this. Do I enjoy it? Not always, so I make sure to only do it when I am "in the mood" to reload. It does take awhile.

To save money... If you shoot A LOT of ammo, then perhaps you can find the time to get down the essentials and then invest in a progressive or something. Then you can crank out decent pistol ammo quickly, keeping your single stage for other things (it will still be useful). Even then you will have to have more than a passing interest in it. It is really better to look at reloading as a hobby rather than a money saver. If you end up saving money, fine.

As far as saving money, I'd say I've saved some over the years, but not anything dramatic. The difference is that I shoot ammo that would be very expensive if I had to pay full price for it. That is really where a single stage shines.

As for saving time, you could end up spending so much time reloading that it cuts into shooting time. Or you are pinched for time and don't get enough loaded and end up buying it anyway.

Not to sound negative or anything, but a reevaluation of why you are doing this sounds in order to me.

 

[chrt396]

Unlike you...I live 20 minutes from the range!! That is dangerous for me as I blow up a lot of ammo in my visit to the range.
Therefore..when I return home...the first task is to separate the brass and throw it in the tumbler..ususally overnight! That way, I'm working with clean brass.
My dies are already set for bullet seating and decapping.
Steps:
I re-size and de-cap. 10 minutes
I prime with a bench mount RCBS primer system. Saves TONs of time and is super easy to use. 10 minutes
I go back and mouth flare. 10 minutes
Powder charge is next. 15 minutes
Seat the bullet 10 minutes
Crimp the bullet and case. 10 minutes
The process for 100 rounds..with a 5 minute coffee and smoke break and a little set-up time is 1 hour and 15 minutes. Safety is built in to that time. Powder and primer checks as well as OCL.

However..when you are shooting as much as I have..it becomes a daunting task vs. a pleasure and fun hobby! It becomes a chore. Therefore...I bought a Dillon progressive RL550B last week. WOW..Loaded 500 rounds in the same time I loaded 100 rounds with the single stage!

I use my single stage now..for my 41 mag, 357 mag and rifle cartridges. The 45, 40 and 9mm are all progressive.

 

[scythefwd]

strykerver - I see your point, but I disagree. I shoot what I hunt with. Locally, that ammo is 45 dollars a box.

Those 4 hours I spent this weekend saved me more than 1/3 of my reloading setup. I lost 2 hours twice with my family. I'd like to cut it down a little. I'd like to drop that time to about 2 hours total, one for case prep and the other for loading. I think I can do that. I'll shoot up a box or two next time at the range and reload again. Instead of paying $2.5 a round, I'm paying $.70 a round. Makes a difference very quickly.

I bought my whole kit inexpensively for what I got. I wanted something better than Lee equipment, not saying I got it though.

I paid nothing for the press.
25 for my dies
25 for my PM (lyman 55)
52 for my scale (lyman d7) because I wanted one that was magnetically dampened unlike the lee.
nothing for my bench.
6 for my calipers
Maybe another 30 for my case prep stuff.

I want good ammo, using good bullets, but I dont want to drop a cnote at a range trip. I dont have an issue giving up 2 hours of my time. I have an issue giving up 4 hours of my time. I'm just starting and I fully realize that I will be getting faster. I just wanted to see if anyone had tips on how to do so and what time they spend for approximately the same amount of loading. Once I have my load chosen, I could see only taking 2.5 hours for everything.

 

[Funshooter45]

No doubt you will speed things up as you get more practice doing it. You just get more efficient over time. You will learn that some things are absolutely mandatory to be obsessive about, while other things can be "good enough". But it takes some time to figure out which things are which. In the meantime though, I compliment you on your attention to detail while getting the hang of it.

You don't mention how you are trimming. I have a Wilson with a drill adapter that works well for my other cartridges, BUT for .243 and .308 I use a Possum Hollw trimmer with the drill adapter. That thing is lightning fast and very precise. Plus I can also use the adapter to spin my RCBS chamfer tool. That speeds up trimming a whole bunch. And the dang thing is not expensive at all. The only trouble is finding one right now.

One other thing you don't mention is whether you are full length sizing or neck sizing only. If you go to neck sizing, there are some benefits. Of course, it extends the life of your brass. But it also means you don't have to trim as often. Plus you don't have to lube or clean lube off. It only works for bolt action rifles and eventually you still have to FL size, but you can get 3-5 firings without messing with trimming or lubing.

 

[scythefwd]

fun - im loading for a break action and and semi auto. No neck sizing unfortunately. I am using a lee cutter with pilots for trimming and the lee chamfer/deburring tool. I have the shell holder mounted to a drill, so I am taking that shortcut already.

 

[GLOOB]

I typically make ~120-150 pistol rounds an hour on a SS press.

Using a powder scoop saves a lot of time. Once calibrated, you don't have to stop periodically to check for drift. There is no drift. Just crank 'em out. W/e your variation is, just choose a load that'll work with the whole range. If you want to make sniper ammo for your pistol, then that's different.

As for OAL, how picky I am depends on the bullet I'm using, and what for. I will take the time to make a custom seating plug for a bullet if the OAL varies too much. This variation in OAL is usually due to the plug not fitting the bullet well, causing varying degrees of deformation, depending largely on how thick the brass is. Once I'm happy with it, I don't check it, again unless I have a reason.

 

[gamestalker]

Well first of all, loading bottle neck cases and straight wall cases are two some what different processes when done correctly. But you'll come to understand that once you've worked with both of those.
I also need to help you understand OAL data. The OAL data in your books is not maximum OAL but the opposite. If the book for instance says OAL of 1.100" it is refering to the shortest OAL you can use for that bullet, not the longest. Longer OAL's are just fine as long as the bullet will fit the magazine and feed OK in your gun. The shorter the OAL, the higher the pressures. Speer did a test with 9mm and determined that a normal SAAMI approved load producing 28,000 cup went to 62,000 when the bullet was seated only .030" deeper than the recomended seating depth. So the thing to watch for is making sure you are at, or above, the published OAL for a given bullet.
It isn't tto difficult to get some rounds cranked out rather quickly if your loading straight walled cases for an ALing firearm. Revoler rounds can take a bit more time due to case preparation necessary to trim cases to all the same length so your crimps are all the same. There are some short cuts to this but they rely mostly on how much experience you have on the press.
If your AL brass all measures within spec. you can skip trimming if there is no crimp needed for the bulet your working with. If the brass needs trimming for either AL or revolver brass a lot of time will be lost. If your brass is in spec. you can still get around the need to trim to same length for bullets needing crimping if you learn to recognize the feel of your crimp. After a little time on the press you'll get to know what feels right and what doesn't.
Priming for me is accomplished with an RCBS priming die which allows me to set primers without having to rely on feel.
Bottle neck cases are just plain and simple a time consuming process because they require lubing prior to sizing.
Variances that are acceptable for powder charges has a great deal to do with the cartridge being loaded, and the powder being used..1 grains variation isn't going to have a noticable effect for a cartridge that has a load range of 64.0 grains - 70.0 grains of powder v.s. a cartridge that has a load range of 3.5 - 4.0 grains. It just greatly depends on the cartridge and powder your working with. Personally, I use a scale for all my cartridges just because I don't like volmetric powder measures, but that's just me being critical about my reloading process, even after 30 years + experience.
Case length and .001" variance. I wouldn't worry about .001" unless it is .001" longer than the maximum case length. Some may disagree with me on that, but over is over, and if the mouth gets restricted during combustion by getting pinched because the case is too long pressures can go very high in a heart beat. But remember what I said above about crimping. If your crimping you need to keep your brass at the same lengths, or you'll have problems with buckled cases, light crimps, no crimps and lots of frustration in general. Again as with the powder charging method I keep all my brass trimmed to the same lengths, because it is a proactive approach to eliminating future problems. Pressures can be effected by case length, and even to a critical degree if your brass is over the maximum length as determined by SAAMI. Another fact is AL handgun cases head space at the mouth, so trimming is necessary if your brass goes beyond the maximum for a given case.
You also mentioned turning your necks. Unless your shooting competition rifle matches turning is not necessary. And for straight walled cases it isn't necessary at all in my opinion.
My last statement is regarding your approach to hand loading. If your going to expect 2 hrs to provide enough time to laod for the range, I would guess your not planning on shooting much? I load with a single stage because I like precision loads, so time does not mean anything to me when I'm in the reloading room. I honestly think you are trying to approach reloading with as many short cuts as possible, including the descision to go with a single stage press while expecting a fast process. The two don't go together without deleting important steps. Obviouly one of the most time consuming steps of reloading with a single stage press is case preparation, and powder charging. I've never used a Dillon or any other high speed press before, but I think some will trim the brass. Please take no offense, but you are approaching reloading in such a manner that you might be destined have problems, or worse. Reloading isn't for everyone, and maybe you need to consider the time you are trading off, and for what? Hand loading, and especially with a single stage press, requires your undevided attention and time to prevent making dangerous mistakes. If your sitting down to the press while watching the clock, well all I can honestly say is, I see serious issues with that.
For general handgun, I can load 50 rounds an hour if all my brass has been sized, trimmed, reamed & chamfered, and tumbled during another session. But if I were to try and load 50 in an hour that haven't been preped in previous sessions, I wouldn't get close.
Buy a Dillon if you want speed.

 

[gamestalker]

Strykervet couldn't have said it better. Loading on a single stage allows us to load the most accurate high velocity ammunition obtainable.
And please allow me to applogize in advance for having maybe offended you. I just get to critical about reloading on the single stage sometimes because it is an opportunity to build custom ammunition, and not intended to be a quick process.

 

[scythefwd]

Gamestalker .. you talk like I'm in a hurry, but right now I am taking 2x time you do on 50 rounds. I'm trying to get down to what you are doing speed wise. Time isn't a consideration when I am at the bench, but I don't like taking 2 hours away from my wife and kids at night after work if I only need 1 to do the same job. I'm not about speed, I'm about efficiency. I don't load enough to justify a dillon (5-6 boxes a year), so the single stage is just fine. I fully understand the difference between being in a hurry, and being economical with my time.

Please show me the shortcuts I'm using. I'm genuinely interested.
I deprime and size (full length since I'm not doing a bolt action). (not many if any shortcuts here, may be a more efficient way to do it though)
I tumble it till it's clean. (ditto as above, though this is pretty simple and straight forward)
I trim to the trim to length (I use a pilot that is of correct length, trim by hand)
I deburr and chamfer the case mouth (not to many shortcuts here, I'm not wasting time here either)
I hand prime (don't bother me as I can do it while talking to my Wife, Kids, etc.... it's all about the feel)
I throw a charge (not too sure about cheating here, not seeing a way, though there may be a more efficient way to do it en mass)
I weigh the charge (will get faster with this as I get the quirks of my technique sorted out on getting more consitent throws)
I put the charge in the case (probably a faster way, say using loading blocks, than doing this one at a time)
I then seat my bullet (doing in batches will be faster than one at a time)
I then check my coal (against the MAX coal listed in my manual AND the min coal listed on the specific charge... there is a max coal listed in the SAAMI specs, I'm just not fussing about a few thousandths of an inch as I'm not to the lands yet.)

Since I'm only doing bottle necked rounds, that is where my focus is right now. You say you can do 50 an hour if all is prepped... it's taking me 2 right now.

 

[Old krow]

I do my stuff in batches as well. The last load that I worked up for my .308 took me 3 hours for 42 rounds, but I sized, trimmed, prep'd, and primed 120 cases to load 42. I think that the hard work was already done, so I'd be looking at probably 2-2.5 hours per batch of 60. I prefer doing it in batches like that because I can break the work up a little bit. I'll clean primer pocket while the TV is on or something like that.

I use a bench mounted primer. I sort of doubt that it makes it faster. I still have to fill the primer tubes. Once they're full, it goes fast. I got the okay on that purchase so I wouldn't be hand priming them while we're watching TV.

I use an electronic scale/dispenser for rifles and working up loads. So far it's been very accurate. If there is any variance it's normally .1 gr. Some don't like them, some do. I think that mine is good for what I use it for. It fits well into my process. My charges will still run across a beam scale, but I can weigh one while another is charging. Working up loads it where it really helps. When I'm running them up in increments, it's just a matter of keying in the new charge.

Some of the really dense powders like AA and Titegroup run through it pretty quick and I have to recycle some charges from time to time. Some powders trickle slower than others, but, otherwise it treats all powders and shapes relatively the same.

When use my PM I use a baffle as well. I use the PM on a couple handgun rounds and rifles when I am okay with it being within .1-.3 gr range.

Working up a load is the most time consuming for me. I think that as you get going and you're working with a recipe that you have already developed, you'll see a decrease in the amount of time that spend per sitting. If you're looking at precision rifle and 50-60 rounds a pop once a week or so, I think that you can get the time under 3 hours. Just let it come at it's own pace and don't rush it. Consider any time that you spend in the mean time that is over that "tuition."