Situation where it's ok to draw but not fire?

[Ukraine Train]

Let's say you hear your car being broken into and you go to investigate/prevent the crime. You find a guy reaching through your broken window into the car. He's not armed. Would it be ok to draw on him as a deterrent/detainment device until the police get there? Pretend this isn't Texas and shooting him wouldn't be justifiable (unless he attacks).

 

[P95Carry]

IANAL but - my take would be that a verbal challenge would be stage #1.

Dependent then on response and threat level (if any) - I might feel able to draw and cover said person but only if there was the prospect of defending against an attack ... armed with gun or knife etc. Shooting then if the threat level is cranked right up.

If no threat and perp makes off - then I think it'd still be not on to draw .. it would be seen as brandishment and threat on your behalf. Only recourse then perhaps would be good description and report asap. If property already taken then ........... hmmm ..... depends where this occurs.

I am interested to here a legal take here.

 

[mfree]

IANAL, AFAIK, ETC ETC..... the only time it *should* be appropriate to draw on a thief reaching into your car would be at home, at night, in Texas.... where they have a law saying so.

I'm totally unaware of any states that presume a CCW grants the right to detain a criminal.

 

[strambo]

You could legally affect a citizens arrest and use the minimum force necessary to detain him because you are witnesssing him commit a crime. The law in my state isn't clear on whether you could take him at gunpoint...with a good lawyer on your side, probably.

In Oregon, the crime would be unlawful use of a firearm (pointing it at someone), however, is it unlawful if you have it to detain someone for a citizens arrest? Another problem is what if he calls your bluff? Will you actualy shoot him if he just walks away? I wouldn't draw down on him simply because I wouldn't be willing to shoot him just to keep him there. I would either detain him physically, or not depending on the situation and only draw if he produces a weapon.

 

[Ktulu]

Ukraine Train, in Michigan you cannot use deadly force to protect property. You can only use deadly force to protect your life or the life of another. I believe this extends to threatening with deadly force. You cannot threaten to use deadly force on someone who is not a direct threat to your life or the life of another.

Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

This varies greatly from state to state. Consult a local attorney.

Legal questions aside, why risk a confrontation over mere insured property?

 

[sturmruger]

In most of the carry training I have taken they stressed that it is an advantage to have the crook leave. They even recomended that you yell something like "get out of here" , or "RUN". In MN you can shoot someone if you are trying to effect a citizens arrest, but they strongly caution against it. Unless something really extreme is going on your best bet is to scare him off. Don't draw unless you are afraid for your life.

I am an amatuer lawyer and this is legal advice that you should follow. If you wind up in court don't call me.




PS I am really sick of everyone saying they aren't a lawyer. Like we really think they are.

 

[P95Carry]

I am really sick of everyone saying they aren't a lawyer. Like we really think they are.

Sturm .. I know it gets kinda tedious but - if offering opinion it does often seem wise to stress that it is just that - lay person opinion ... and not legal advice per se ..... a means of not ill advising someone.

Overall, I think, we do actually have quite a few here in the legal profession .... so not always easy to tell.

 

[spacemanspiff]

if its property at risk, my state wouldnt justify if i used deadly force, or the threat of deadly force.

if the crime is a felony, i would be justified using deadly force or the threat of.

now, how do you know the thief is not armed? could he have a weapon concealed? could he draw it on you once you have made a verbal confrontation?
if you thought all you were going to do is yell at him and get him to run away, and you hadnt drawn your weapon out, he might beat you to the punch and open fire.

its a different scenario if you catch someone breaking into your home.

 

[sturmruger]

Good point P95 we do have a lot of lawyers around here. I guess it can be tough tell.


The problem with asking for legal type advice on the net, is every state if not every county is differant. Some guy from Texas has a lot more options then I do here in WI.

 

[4t5]

What are you going to do if he turns and comes at you like a freight train? Shoot him? No, I'd pepper spray him and call the police. If he ran away before I could spray him, I'd let him go. I'm not going to catch anybody anyway. Unless I am REALLY in fear of my life, or that of a close family member, I will not draw. Inside my house, different story..........................

 

[aguyindallas]

Personally:

If this is at night and I am certain that there is someone breaking into MY car, I will (have wife) call the police, exit the house armed and be prepared, probably at low ready, certainly not from a concealed draw. When the threat level is assessed, I would make a verbal command to stop or get out of here, etc...

Depending on the outcome, I would act accordingly. While in Texas, it would be legal to use deadly force, I would not do so unless I was being attacked or the other person is armed and I can SEE the gun/knife, etc. Its just not worth it. The civil liability is more than I can afford to defend, so why bother.

Your results may vary, but remember, the jury is going to say:

"Was your car stereo worth killing this guy" (In my mind, yes, a BG is a BG)
Reality and the P/C world we live in will tell you no. Thats what car insurance is for.

Now...breaking into my home, armed BG or not, he is going down. I WILL shoot first and ask questions later in this case. Nobody is welcome in my home without an invitation. Under no circumstances would I waver in this fact.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Can't think of one... not justified in shooting, not justified in drawing. Guns are not talismans to ward off evil, waving them about serves no real purpose save making trouble for the brandisher.

lpl/nc

 

[FMarlon]

Uh, are we just looking for a situation where it is ok to just draw without the intention to shoot?

How about never?

In my ccw class, I was told not to draw unless I have the intention of shooting the BG (perp, whatever). Sometimes the "pucker factor" will make them run before shots are fired, but in general I think that a lowly sneak thief isnt worth wasting a perfectly good Hydrashock on. YMMV

Seriously though, I have surprised a couple BG's in the process of B&E/vandalizing a vehicle in my apartment complex. I find that turning on the flood light on my video camera usually is sufficient to send them scurrying like the cockroaches they are.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Black Snowman]

You don't have to draw to let them know you're armed. Simply droping into a weaver stance and putting your hand under your coat will let any criminal know your intentions.

Here's a 2nd hand story that's related. I have a friend who lived in a rough part of town. He eventally saved up for a pretty nice classic car. There was no CCW in his state but he knew with his car he would get car-jacked. So, he carried a .38 revolver.

There were a dozen situations over the course of a couple years where he was approched by a gang of men while at a stop light. 9 of the times he simply leaned over and reached under the seat and they all backed off. 3 times he had to brandish the gun to get them to back off. Several other times there was no car ahead of him at the light and he simply ran it.

Later he moved to a better neighborhood and the .38 is now retired in his parents home. I keep trying to get him to go shooting, but he's too busy with his woman

 

[gryphon]

The only time you should be pulling a gun and pointing it at someone is if you INTEND TO SHOOT THEM.

Brandishing to "scare" someone will only get you into trouble.

 

[bubbygator]

I agree totally with gryphon. I have & like lasergrip sights - on the Crimson Trace product site, they talk about a BG being scared by noticing the laser spot on his chest. In CT forums, this has been talked about. My position is that kind of thing is only for LEO's!! If a BG sees my laser on his chest, it is only a split second before my bullet is going to be hitting that spot.

 

[Gocart]

Not to split hairs, but the original question was "to draw?" - not "to draw and point at someone."

I'd contend that there are any number of scenarios around my home and other places where it is appropriate for me to go ahead and draw, have the gun in hand, but where I would not be justified in aiming at someone. If that breaks a brandishing law, so be it. I like my chances against anyone if I have gun in hand to start with.

Notwithstanding all PC and legal considerations, I have a moral problem with killing someone just because they are stealing my property. I might convince them that they are about to die, but my current and well-thought-out plans are to use lethal force only in defense of myself or other innocent loved ones and only in response to a perceived lethal force threat.

 

[Werewolf]

The law varies state by state. In Oklahoma it's a bit strange.

In the situation described you could not legaly shoot the person breaking into your car - period.

However, the Felony Pointing of a Firearm law specificaly exempts pointing a firearm to protect personal property. In other words it is not a felony to point a gun at a person who is taking or damaging your property.

What's wierd though is that it is in the situation described a misdemeanor as the Pointing a Firearm law which is a misdemeanor offense does not make the same exemption.

In either case the BG can just flip you the bird and go on his way because you can't shoot him.

I expect - though do not know for sure - that it would be legal to use what ever reasonable force necessary to detain the BG but considering OK's wierd laws on firearms and knives I'm not sure that would be a really good bet since I can find no references to what would be considered reasonable force.

To those folks who say "screw it - just call the cops - it's insured" I say you may feel differently about that after your home has been burglarized 3 times (no one home at the time) and your cars broken into in your driveway twice (both times at night) in a period of 10 years.

 

[Mannlicher]

Basic rule of thumb should be "dont pull a gun unless you are going to shoot"
You may think you are going to cower someone into submission by brandishing, but you may well have pushed the perp into thinking HE is the one being threatened, and he just might kill you.
There may be circumstances where showing you are armed might be the best course, but if you show yours,you should always be prepared for things to 'go south' in a hurry.

 

[Shadowman]

Ditto what Mannlicher said:

Also, in some states drawing your firearm constitutes using deadly force. So, an over-zealous d.a. might offer you on the altar of political correctness.

 

[reagansquad]

ok... Say someone pulls a knife and starts walking towards you, you go for your gun while yelling "STOP!"... The person drops the knife and runs of during youur draw. It is then ok to not fire.

 

[Web]

^In that situation, not only is it okay not to fire at a fleeing felon, it would be illegal for you to do so.

 

[reagansquad]

^ Yes.

I thought that was well covered by the rest of this forum so I didn't mention it.

BTW, IANAL

 

[SOT_II]

As a civilian you draw when you are in fear for your life or that of another.

If the threat is no longer there, there is no reason to fire.

In more than a few states pulling out a gun with no threat or as an act of deterence....is brandishing...you get in trouble for that....not the bad guy.