Sizer Die Not Working??

[jaybrown]

Hey guys. I ended up sizing some of that once fired brass I bought for my 40 s&w. With my last purchase at midway I bought a case guage. I grabed a piece of factory ammo and tossed it in there. Looks good I said to myself. So I went outside to my reloading bench and grabbed a couple cases that I had decaped and resized.... NO DICE! Wouldnt fit in towards the head.

So my question is, whats wrong? Is it my sizer die? Is the brass being elastic and not holding the sizers shape. I measured, very carefully, the inside diameter of the sizer die and found 0.420". When I measure the case thats been sized I get 0.425. Any ideas?

 

[rbwillnj]

Do you have your sizing die adjusted properly. When the case is raised all the way up into the die, the sizing die should touch, or virtually touch the shell holder or shell plate.

 

[jaybrown]

I raised the ram to its full raised position. Then insert the die all the way down till it touches the shell holder. My speer manual says for carbide dies to back the die off 1/64" so as not to damage the die. So I back it off 1/8th a turn and resized. That was how I orginally resized the brass. I also tryed bringing down the die so it touches. I locked the die in and slowly resized. Same result. Which sparked me to start this thread. It almost feels like the brass is rebounding back towards its orginal diameter. Im not sure if thats possible.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Sizing dies are generally tapered slightly at the mouth to allow the case to start into the die without shaving brass. That taper, combined with the amount of the case that's within the shellholder, will not be sized by the die. This is what you are measuring and is not allowing the sized case to fit in the case gauge.

Use your barrel for a gauge and I'll bet you're going to find that your cases will fit just fine. As long as the cases, and loaded ammunition, fit in your chamber, then all you have to worry about is whether or not the sizing die is reducing the diameter of the case mouth enough to hold the bullet in place, which I'm sure it is.

There is only two ways to size the entire shell casing on a rimless cartridge, and those are to push the entire case through a sizing die, such as the Magma Case Master, or a roll sizing die, which is another process entirely.

My bet is you don't really have a problem and that your ammunition is going to work just fine.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[BluesBear]

Some carbide dies are radiused and some are recessed!

Without knowing which you have there's no way to know if the Speer "suggestion" is proper or not.

For example the old Lyman carbide dies had an inset with very little radius that was flush with the die mouth. They do a remarkable job of sizeing the brass almost completely to the rim. The more recent Lyman dies have the carbide insert recessed to the point of being silly. To get anywhere near complete resizing the shell holder HAS to make contact with the die.

And don't try grinding the die body flush to the insert. It's not a good solution. Trust me on this.

I set my sizing die to just lightly kiss the shellholder as the ram fully extends and the handle rolls over.

I used a flush insert RCBS carbide .45acp die from 1976 until 1992 and the shell holder made light rollover contact on every case. The die worked just fine until I dropped it on a concrete floor.

I still use a 1978 vintage Lyman .44 Mag carbide die that has also survived all these years of light rollover contact.

 

[jaybrown]

RCBS Response

Hey guys. I asked RCBS support, which was very helpful and courteous may I add. She gave me the same answer as Mr. Fred a couple posts back, "As long as it chambers your barrel your fine".

So I guess my question is.. What good is the case guage?

 

[Oldnamvet]

Another gizmo to buy and look at??

 

[Car Knocker]

The ultimate case gauge is the chamber of the firearm the ammunition will be fired in. Anything else is superfluous.

 

[BluesBear]

And if that ultimate chamber is grossly oversize or has excessive headspace it could be the final gauge.

Is your case gauge possibly SAAMI minium?
How does factory ammo fit in the gauge?

edited to add...

After rereading the entire thread it looks like factory ammo fits fine.

And to respond to your original post; Yes Brass being ductile AND resilent will spring back slightly.
(which is why the Lee Factory Crimp die isn't the be-all/end-all some think it is.)

 

[Car Knocker]

Ultimate in the sense that if it fits the chamber, it doesn't really matter if it fits the case gauge.

 

[WayneConrad]

I find the case gauge useful because I have a caliber for which I have several firearms, and wish not to have to unload and disassemble each one so that I could use the barrels as gauges to know that each round will fire in any of those firearms.

I had this problem in 9mm. I found that the Lee die resizes more of the case than does my RCBS carbide die, which is both radiused AND inset.

 

[BluesBear]

Have you tried adjusting the die to the point where the shell holder just kisses the die?

It looks like you're not resizing the case far enough.
OR
Your dies is on the maxium side of spec and your gauge is closer to the minimum spec.

Cartridges Of The World shows a base diameter of .423" for the .40S&W with a rim diameter of .424".
You said you are sizing them to .425" so you getting close (.002")
However this might change with a different brand of case.

 

[callgood]

Just out of curiosity, what brand of brass are you resizing?

 

[JonSmith]

Jay,

Based on your photos, you do not have the die close enough to the shellholder, adjust the die to just above the shellholder, but not touching it, the instructions with my RCBS 40S&W dies say 1/16 inch above the shellholder.

And since I advised you to buy the case gauge, here's the reason to have one: if the sized case fits in the case gauge you KNOW the case will chamber, regardless of the weapon. Based on your photo I'm not sure that case will chamber. The reason I suggested you get a case gauge is that for a new reloader it takes some of your doubt away about weather or not you are doing a step correctly and builds your confidence that you have completed that step correctly. If you have the sizing die adjusted correctly then the case gauge will verify that. I hope you don't feel it was wasted money. I've been reloading for over 25 years and use a case gauge all the time.

The other posters are correct in that if it fits your chamber then that's all that matters, however, if a loaded round fits in the gauge you KNOW the round should chamber in any 40S&W firearm.

The worst thing to have happen is for a new reloader to get discouraged and quit, we need all the reloaders and shooters we can get!!!!

 

[jaybrown]

Jon,

Thanks for the reply. To tell you the truth I didnt even remember that you had suggested it as a purchase But it made sence to buy one. I dont feel like it was a wasted purchase at all. Its much easier to have that little guy sitting on my reloading bench to check the dimensions then having to pull my barrel out of gun each time.

I tryed resizing with the shellholder touching the die. Being real careful as not to impact the die I resized a case. But the same issues were there. I check the diameter of the die and found it to be 0.420, so I felt the die was good. I'm a detail person. If something doesnt seem right I want to know why. So I end up asking alot of questions. I'm glad to see the people that post here are so patient with me I was concerned with the cases because they were once fired. If you look at this post it shows some of my concerns.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=210911

But I checked the resized case with the barrel and found that it chambered fine. I guess I'm just getting a feel for how it all works. But dont worry, I'm not easily discouraged The Cases are federal headstamp by the way.

 

[Jim Watson]

To expand a little:

The sizing die has a little taper or radius at the mouth to get the case started, as said above.
The standard shellholder is .125" deep and covers the rim, extractor groove and usually some of the casehead to that distance.
So there is over 1/8" that the die does not touch at all.
Combine that with a rather high pressure cartridge expanding brass into sloppy chambers in the police Glocks that shoot most of the once-fired brass on the market and there is plenty of reason your reloads don't pass the gauge.

I don't know how close they hold dimensions on an $8 gauge, but Midway says theirs are made to maximum cartridge dimensions, which are smaller than minimum chamber dimensions, which is why a round can fail the gauge but still chamber check in the gun barrel.

The first thing to do is chamber check and shoot to see if they work in actual use.

The next thing to do is to order a "U" undersize resizing die from EGW. It is made by Lee but is smaller I.D. than usual and has less radius.

The last gasp is to get a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die, take out the crimp ring and adjustment knob, and improvise a push rod to drive cases all the way through its carbide insert. That will give the same effect as an expensive dedicated roll or push through sizer at low cost but much labor.

 

[BluesBear]

If it were my die I'd contact RCBS cuetomer service (if you telephone be prepared to wait on hold for 20-30 minutes) and tell them that I was unhappy witht he product that it doesn't meet SAAMI standards and that I wanted a replacement die that did.

They WILL send you another one.

 

[Khornet]

If I recall correctly,

those gauges are for checking a LOADED round. At least that's how I understood it when I bought mine. My Wilson rifle gauges are for brass only, but I think the pistol ones are not. So before you give up, load a few and check 'em.

 

[WayneConrad]

I have a set of these Wilson gauges for 38 sp. and 9mm. They work whether or not the case has a bullet in it. If the case is out of spec without a bullet, it isn't going to get any better after it's a finished round.

 

[jaybrown]

Yea, I resized some more cases and had a few that would chamber in the case guage but not many. I'm learning alot guys. thanks for all the help

 

[BluesBear]

WayneConrad is correct. If the freshly resized case won't fit then a larger loaded round won't either.

 

[benedict1]

I may be missing something here but if you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die as the final stage it not only sets the proper crimp but full-length resizes the loaded round. Since I started using Lee dies even the Glock 'belly-band' in 9 mm goes through the loading process and chambers perfectly in my Kimber 9 mm. With another company's dies/press with .38 Special I would often get a bulge around the case in the final stage. The Lee Factory Crimp Die for .38 Special has eliminated that problem completely. I now use my case gauges for paper weights.

If I have missed a more complex point, I'm sorry. But I think this will solve your problem. Just run the case through all the dies and make sure the final one is the Lee FC die.