Sizing down brass- what am I doing wrong here?

[C5rider]

Started preparing some new 30-40 Krag brass for my 25 Krag. I've had the dies for some time and my cousin has reloaded ammo for me before. I believe the dies to be set accurately as I've not played with them since he reloaded. The shells he reloaded worked in my gun.

I started with fresh brass as the ones that he reloaded all had cracked necks. I assume that they were not annealed and therefore, the reason for the cracking.

I annealed 20 cases and started running them into the die. I used Lee lube in my RCBS sizing die. I hadn't trimmed the necks for length as I assumed that I should do that when they are sized, just in case it might change the length once sized.

when I ran the first one through the die, it crushed the neck down. I tried another with similar results. I ran an old shell casing into the die and it worked fine. I then tried a casing that I've not annealed yet, with lube. It went in but the neck is not straight. I rememeber seeing some of this on the shells when I first fired them (before my cousin re-loaded them) and they fire-formed to the chamber when fired. It didn't bow in like the others.

I then tried another one that was annealed and it didn't bulge in but, I'm wondering if I should size before I anneal the rest? I thought with the amount of sizing I would be doing, that annealing first would be beneficial. Now I'm not so sure. I didn't over-heat the brass and make it too soft (I don't think) and if anything, I felt that I was a little light on the heating.

Any insight will be greatly appreciated.

thanks.

Here's a picture of the brass. The first ones to the left are fired casing (cousin's reload), the annealed (squished brass), the next two are annealed (but not squished) and then the last one is not annealed and re-sized.

 

[fol4321]

the die is set too far down

 

[Josh45]

Try readjusting your resizing die.
Remove the die, Then bring the ram all the way up. After that, Start putting the die back in until it kisses the shell holder. Once you done that, Lower the ram and twist the die another half turn or so.

Try that with one or two and see if that works out for you

 

[243winxb]

My Guess Is ............

From what i am reading online, there is no standard for the 25 Krag . There are drawings at http://www.stevespages.com/page8d.htm The maximum case length looks like 2.300" for the 25 Krag improved? This is .014" less then the 30-40 So maybe trimming first might help?? Another article said the inside of the neck may need to be reamed after sizing? The case on the right looks ok before fire forming/annealing. So, my guess is, trim the 30-40 brass. Size. Check trim length again/trim? Make a dummy round & compare neck diameter to fired brass. Dummy neck should be same or smaller than fired neck. After fire forming, then anneal. .25 Krag Niedner case length is 2.475" No trimming needed on the 30-40?

 

[C5rider]

It is definitely a slight bit confusing with the different variants of the 25 Krag. That said, the brass that I've got from previous times is shorter than the 30-40 brass. I wasn't sure if necking down the brass would change the length so, I didn't trim them yet. I might try some to see if it helps.

When I first noticed it, I thought maybe I got the brass too hot. But looking at the discoloration, I wasn't sure that was the issue either.

So far as the die, even now, it's not all the way down to the shell holder. If I ran it all the way down, wouldn't that put the neck too far down in the casing? I'm thinking of trimming one of the casings that don't look too bad and see if they fit into the chamber of the gun. If it goes in, it should be okay, right?

This is the first time I've been working with a necked cartridge, so it's a bit of a learning curve for me. Thanks for the insights!

 

[gamestalker]

You said you lubed the RCBS die, right? The lube has to be applied to the case, not the die. Lube the inside and outside of the neck and the case body, don't get any lube on the shoulder. Use a very light amount of lube, too much and you'll end up with lube dents.

To crush cases in that manner and to that excessive degree would have nothing to do with how the die is adjusted, unless the shell holder or the die have been seriously trimmed down to allow for that much over adjustment. Even with the die completely bottomed out against the shell holder at full ram extension, you couldn't possibly push the neck into the shoulder like those have been. Make sure you are using the correct die and not the seating die, which if adjusted down to make contact with the shell holder could very likely do that to a case.

GS

 

[C5rider]

Gamestalker,

Yes, I lubed the case, not the die. Only stated that so everyone would know that I was not working with carbide dies.

The fact that some cases went through without pushing them in makes me think that it isn't a clearance issue, as they usually don't "find" room one time and not another.

The ONLY thing I can come up with is that annealing them before sizing made the neck too soft, thereby allowing it to cave in like they did while re-sizing the neck to the 25 caliber.

I think I'll trim this case and try it in the gun, if it fits, I'll try a few more without annealing and see if they cave.

 

[243winxb]

25 Krag

When forming, a small amount of lube on the outside of the neck will help, as Gamestalker said.

So far as the die, even now, it's not all the way down to the shell holder. If I ran it all the way down, wouldn't that put the neck too far down in the casing?

The sizing of the brass should be just enough that the sized empty brass will chamber. I had 1 set of dies for a 7mm TCU that would set the shoulder back way to far if the shell holder touched the FL sizing die.

The ONLY thing I can come up with is that annealing them before sizing made the neck too soft, thereby allowing it to cave in like they did while re-sizing the neck to the 25 caliber.

I agree, worth a try. No annealing before forming. Lube outside of necks. Maybe trim brass before sizing?

 

[NATE40]

Started preparing some new 30-40 Krag brass for my 25 Krag. I've had the dies for some time and my cousin has reloaded ammo for me before. I believe the dies to be set accurately as I've not played with them since he reloaded. The shells he reloaded worked in my gun.

I started with fresh brass as the ones that he reloaded all had cracked necks. I assume that they were not annealed and therefore, the reason for the cracking.

I annealed 20 cases and started running them into the die. I used Lee lube in my RCBS sizing die. I hadn't trimmed the necks for length as I assumed that I should do that when they are sized, just in case it might change the length once sized.

when I ran the first one through the die, it crushed the neck down. I tried another with similar results. I ran an old shell casing into the die and it worked fine. I then tried a casing that I've not annealed yet, with lube. It went in but the neck is not straight. I rememeber seeing some of this on the shells when I first fired them (before my cousin re-loaded them) and they fire-formed to the chamber when fired. It didn't bow in like the others.

I then tried another one that was annealed and it didn't bulge in but, I'm wondering if I should size before I anneal the rest? I thought with the amount of sizing I would be doing, that annealing first would be beneficial. Now I'm not so sure. I didn't over-heat the brass and make it too soft (I don't think) and if anything, I felt that I was a little light on the heating.

Any insight will be greatly appreciated.

thanks.

Here's a picture of the brass. The first ones to the left are fired casing (cousin's reload), the annealed (squished brass), the next two are annealed (but not squished) and then the last one is not annealed and re-sized.

It sounds to me like you should get a set of calipers and a micrometer and measure your brass before sizing. All bottle neck cases must be lubed even if you are using carbide dies or steel dies. Neck sizing dies do not need lube. Check if your die is a neck sizing die and track down one of those split cases from your brother and measure and compare the two. You may need to reduce your case thickness at the mouth. 25 Niedner Krag" Niedner was the creator of this 30-40 krag necked down to .25 Caliber with a expanded shoulder with a different angle but I am pretty certain most dies are neck sizer die. This will answer the fire forming comment you posted. Also RCBS did offer neck size dies for this caliber. I don't remember if they were a special order or not but they do offer them. If you have one built make sure you specify neck diameter, as I think this conversion requires the Brass be neck reamed during the initial forming operations. The more I think about your description of problems seem to point to a neck size die. If its not I would get one as once the brass has been fire formed it will be easy to neck size in the future as neck sizing reduces the number of trimmings a lot. ----- By the way where are you getting your load data for this as it should have specs on cases?

 

[powell&hyde]

From looking at your pictures, the case on the far right does not appear to have the sharp shoulder as the improved cases have. Here is a scan from my book of cartridge conversions for the 25 Krag. I also have the 25 Krag improved in the book if you need it scanned let me know.

 

[RedHeadHunter]

I don't load for the 25 krag, but I have done some forming.

I have found that different brands of brass behave very differently when forming them. Here is a step by step system I came up with to handle some of my difficult brass.

http://www2.rhenryred.com/reloading/Reloading_Rifle_6PPC_CaseForming_index.html

What works for you will most likely be different. The fun part is experimenting to find out what works.

I usually anneal after the brass is work hardened.

You may have to neck it down in several steps.

You may have to turn the neck thickness down after sizing. (Will help with sizing, chambering, and smooth out any thick portions)

Good luck, Have fun, Be Safe!

 

[Swampman]

I know nothing about the .25 Krag, but I've done quite a bit of case forming.
Trying to neck the case down .05" in one swat is more than I would want to attempt and will probably give you very high number of trashed cases. If I were trying to neck those cases down, I'd use an intermediate die of about 7mm. I'm not sure exactly what your case dimensions are, but try fitting one of your already formed cases into a 7mm Mauser sizing die. If the case will fit without getting the case body or shoulder reduced you're in business. If not, try another die, maybe a 7mm/08 or .280.

First, remove the entire decapping stem from the 7mm die and use one of your already formed cases to adjust it so that as much of the neck as possible will be sized without sizing the shoulder of your case down or running the case mouth into the step at the end of the chamber inside the die.
The 30-40 has a long neck so you probably won't be able to size it all in the die, but as long as you get a goodly portion of it done, you should be fine.
Once you've got them necked to 7mm, proceed as usual with your .25 Krag sizing die.

I would not anneal the cases before I formed them unless they had already seen a lot of use.

Tips
I prefer Imperial to RCBS lube for case forming, it requires less effort and is less likely to cause dented shoulders.

Make sure that all dies are clean and that vent holes aren't plugged up.

Sometimes it helps if you polish the interior of the die with some super fine steel wool, followed by polishing compound. Chuck a piece of quarter inch wooden dowel rod into a drill and split the end slightly to hold your wool or polishing rag. Then insert into the die and spin, don't overdo it though, you don't want to change the dimensions.
Hope this helps,
Swampman

 

[C5rider]

Thanks for the info, suggestions and diagrams!

I'm sure that once I get the system down, it'll move right along. Just being the first time for me and all, I was sure there would be a learning process. It's just borderline painfull to see those new brass cases get all distorted! :banghead:

I'll take that diagram and compare some measurements.

 

[ranger335v]

Measurements won't change anything, neither will adjusting your die up-down. Your annealed shoulders are collapsing because the pressure required to size .30 cal. necks down that far in a single step is too great; you need an intermediate neck diameter sizer.

I've learned that, on average, it's best to neck down in steps no greater than 20 thou and 15 thou steps is better.

And, at least fot me, a matt finish die wall holds case lube better, making matt finish dies easier to work with than mirror finish dies.

 

[fguffey]

Something ‘aint’ right about this thread from the beginning, and I have no clue as to how anyone can draw a conclusion based on the information and picture furnished, questions, only questions, that is all I see.

Case number 2 and 3 are anomalies, an anomaly is something you do not normally see, if the die being used is a 25 Krag die the case has case body support and, therefore, it is impossible to turn a case inward at the shoulder and then force the case body out. In my opinion the die could be an Ackley Improved 25 Krag or the die being used is a 25 cal neck sizer die. then there is that part about crooked cases/bent over necks? If the case had any support from the die body it should be decided how the cases are coming out crooked, bent, leaning or out of alignment.

As to the “nothing to be gained by adjusting the die up or down” ??.

Again, my favorite forming die is anything in the 308 W family of dies, If I were involved in forming 30/40 Krag down to 25 Krag I would use a 243 W forming die, adjusting the die? HOW? the 243 is shorter than the 30/40 Krag, so, if adjusting the die up and or down is not a consideration avoid case forming, my dies and presses have threads, my dies are adjustable to the shell holder, my chambers are not adjustable, and that limits my options, first I determine the length of the chamber then adjust my die in the press to the shell holder, off the shell holder and when I am in one of my hard headed moods, I adjust the die below the shell holder with the additional 1/4. 1/2 etc., turn, I do that when the case is tougher than my press, or put another way, when the case has more resistance to being sized than my press has ability to over come the resistance, I punish the press, there are times my press wins, there are times the case wins, and there are ways to determine the winner.

The 30/40 Krag has a long neck, the 25 improved Ackely type case has a short neck, when forming correctly the neck is the only part of the case that requires forming when going to an Ackley formed case, meaning the last two cases appear to be correct, still not understood is how the cases body and case body to shoulder juncture expanded with case body support.

I an the fan of the adjustable die, simply put, my chamber is not adjustable, so my whole reloading world evolves around adjusting the die up and or down without making wild guestimates, making wild guestimates causes the reloader to start over every day, again, once the length of the chamber is determined and it is not adjustable, I resort to the incline plain, the threads on my press and die, and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

“And, at least for me, a matt finish die wall holds case lube better, making matt finish dies easier to work with than mirror finish dies”

I want my chambers and dies to have a mirror finish, I do not want anything between my case in the chamber to have anything between the case body and chamber but air, and I prefer not to have more air between the case body and chamber than is necessary, when it comes to the cohesion of friction nothing beats 100% contact.

When it comes to ‘a lube’ I want a lube that is proven to be thin and can tolerate pressure, I do not need an anti foam, anti acid, high heat, high viscosity when hot or a low viscosity when cold (multi viscosity), and, I do not need a oil that has enough detergent to float the dirt and ware particles to the filter.

F. Guffey

 

[Uncle Richard]

Thanks for the info, suggestions and diagrams!

I'm sure that once I get the system down, it'll move right along. Just being the first time for me and all, I was sure there would be a learning process. It's just borderline painfull to see those new brass cases get all distorted! :banghead:

I'll take that diagram and compare some measurements.

After you figure out the process, I highly recommend writing it down, step by step. I have a 22/30-30 thats +60 years old and no one ever wrote the reloading steps down. Now all that information/knowledge is lost. It took me a couple of months and help from many from this website to figure it out.

I agree with RedHeadhunter above.... the neck sizing will take several steps, switching back and forth between dies.

 

[David Wile]

Hey C5Rider,

While I never formed .30 Krags into .25 Krags, I have formed a number of other calibers without the need for intermediate step dies. I have five suggestions:

1. Try it without annealing the necks.

2. Do not trim necks to length until after sizing to the .25 Krag.

3. Use RCBS case lube on the whole case applied from a lube pad. Use enough so the case is sticky. Don't worry about lube dents on the shoulder; they will be shot out when fire forming. Sizing from .30 down to .25 is a big step and requires enough lube to ease the pain.

4. Of course you must be using the .25 Krag sizer die and not something else. When setting the sizing die, it should be adjusted so the bottom of the die is just touching the shell holder with the ram at the top of its stroke.

5. As you start to size the .30 neck, only run it up in the sizer die perhaps 1/8th of an inch and pull it back down. Look at it to see what is happening. If it is sizing it down OK, then run it up another 1/8th of an inch and look at it again. If you try to size the whole neck in one stroke of the ram, you are simply asking for failure. Keep running the case up in the die a little bit at a time and pulling it back down until the shell holder finally touches the bottom of the die. Taking your time by running it up and down a little bit at a time allows the brass to keep from getting hot.

It is kind of like drilling a half inch hole in steel by starting with a 1/8th in bit and working your way up to a half inch bit. It may sound like a lot of extra work, but trying to hand drill a half inch hole in steel is not a picnic either. Little steps may sound like extra work, but it really isn't.

Once you have sized the case from .30 to .25, you then need to see if the necks need reaming, and then they will need to be trimmed to proper length. Again, do not worry about ordinary lube dents; they will come out upon fire forming.

A friend needed cases for a 40-60 Winchester Model 1876, but buying new 40-60 cases was not an option, so he asked me to help. We bought 45-70 cases and a new set of RCBS 40-60 dies. In forming the 40-60 cases, we were essentially taking a .45 caliber straight wall case and sizing it down to a tapered .40 caliber case. We used plain old sticky RCBS lube applied with a lube pad, and we kept running the 45-70 cases in and out of the 40-60 sizer die a little bit at a time. Perhaps it was less than 1/8th of an inch at a time. I know it took several minutes to do each case, but we managed to successfully do them all without getting any cases stuck in the sizer die. After sizing, we did not have to ream the necks, but we had a good bit of brass to cut off to trim them to proper size.

Why don't you try doing one or two cases the way I suggested and see if it works for you. If it does work, that's great. If it does not work, you are only two cases worse off than you are right now.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[noylj]

I trim before sizing bottleneck cases (and have not ever needed to trim straight wall cases). If the case is too long, the case mouth can hit the die and cause a crushed case. Can you feel it hit the die with a sudden increase in sizing force?
Check length after resizing, and perform additional trimming if required.

 

[918v]

Case length has nothing to do with the sizing die crushing the necks. The necks are too soft. Also, going from 30 to 25 is hard to do in one step. See if you can use an intermediate die or two, like a 270 something.

 

[rcmodel]

What he siad.

Annealing is making the shoulder too soft to support the necking down operation.

Try it without annealing first.

If that doesn't help you will have to take it in two smaller steps with a die in between .30 & .25.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

Some brands of dies, the seating die can serve as a first step toward sizing down the parent brass.

 

[C5rider]

Thanks for the input.

Sorry for the delay in checking back. I've been doing some travelling and haven't had a chance to get back out to the reloading bench. I'll have some time tomorrow so i'll try a few more of the un-annealed brass to see how it goes.

I'll post pics as soon as I can.

 

[C5rider]

Well, I think I've figured it out!

I went and sized, loaded and fired about a dozen shells this weekend. There were a couple of things that I think helped make it sucessful.

First, I figured that the dies (which hadn't been used in DECADES) might have had some gunk up in them. Cleaned them out AND used generous amounts of Lee Sizing Lube. Then, I did what was suggested earlier and ran the neck up in the die a little bit, pulled it back down and checked it, then continued. It was about a three-step process. But, it produced good cases, both previously annealed and not. I think it was just a combination of gunk and speed. Got rid of both and it went much better.

Now, I'm planning on sizing all of the rest of the brass before annealing. Then anneal, load and shoot.

The loads went pretty good at the range, so I THINK I've found the magic process. I hope. Thanks for all the help!