SKS or AR-15? Which is better for defense?

[bowfin]

/*I voted the SKS is better, cause for the price of one AR, I can buy 4 SKSs.

That makes it my four people armed with SKSs to your one guy with an AR.*/

...and if Mr. AR-15 gets you and your three co-targets out in an open space shooting war at farther than 200 yards, he will probably have an AR and four SKS rifles for the price of a single AR.

 

[Ferrari308]

/*I voted the SKS is better, cause for the price of one AR, I can buy 4 SKSs.

That makes it my four people armed with SKSs to your one guy with an AR.*/

...and if Mr. AR-15 gets you and your three co-targets out in an open space shooting war at farther than 200 yards, he will probably have an AR and four SKS rifles for the price of a single AR

Does the AR-15 have a significantly longer distance it can hit targets than a SKS?

 

[Stiletto Null]

this is fun

Does the AR-15 have a significantly longer distance it can hit targets than a SKS?

Yep. It's not so much an MOA limitation (2~3MOA means reliable hits on frontal torso aspect out to 500m or so, if you take your time) as trajectory: 7.62x39 goes rainbow pretty quickly. Max point blank range on an SKS (using M43-esque ammo) will be about 200m. MPBR on an AR will be about 300m.

Also, the AR's sights are better—this can be largely remedied by spending on better irons for the SKS (Tech Sights, Firesights), siderail scopes, or scout scopes.

$400 can get you an SKS, a scout mount, and a pretty nice optic (Ultradot, a decent ~2x pistol scope, stuff like that).

***

...and if Mr. AR-15 gets you and your three co-targets out in an open space shooting war at farther than 200 yards, he will probably have an AR and four SKS rifles for the price of a single AR.

Well, let's see.

2x SKS: $250
M48A: $150
SVD/SKS standard siderail mount: $50
A nice Dragunov style 6x42 scope: $200
Some nice walkie-talkies: $50

Open field:
You come under massed fire from two widely separated shooters with SKSes. You duck behind a tree. The SKS shooters radio in your position, and the Mauser shooter blasts a chunk of tree through your spinal cord. You die.
Press fire to respawn.

Urban:
You walk into the vicinity of the people's house, apartment, whatever. You walk under the tree in which the sniper is encamped. He radios in your position. You come under massed fire from less than a hundred feet away, with wide angular separation. You die.
Press fire to respawn.

Tactical options get interesting when you start mixing up the weaponry. Frankly, unless you're really working the "rifle behind every blade of grass" scenario (foreign invasion) in which you will be deployed forward of your own area of residence, more guns (provided they are "combat accurate", reliable, semiautomatic, and quickly reloadable) will probably trump fewer-but-better guns.

 

[KC&97TA]

I used to own an SKS, it sat behind the seat of the truck, usally loaded and uncased... I think I cleaned it once in 4 years, took it horse back hunting for fox and coyote several times, it cost me about $150 and was "new & packed in grease". I got rid of it after it began to slam fire. I had 30 round banana's for it, and it go used when we'd go out shooting, Ammo at that time was like $1.50 for like 300 Russian surplus rounds.

I own 2 - Rock River Arms AR-15's, neither of them has had a manfunction, (except for a bad USGI mag with bent feed lips, but that wasn't the gun it was one of my buddies useing his mags). 100% reliabelity for $900 that was for my M4-gery and I don't really want to say how much money I have into the NM AR, But the NM will hold 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards (from the prone, not on a sand bag), that's with 77gr molly-coated match rounds.

I've placed my life on the M16A4, and am here to talk about it, I'll place my life on my personal M4-gery any day of the week.

 

[Limeyfellow]

Government agents nbent on "policing armed citizens

If government agencies came wanting to take your guns it doesn't really matter what rifle you have. Its not going to do well against the likes of tanks, helecopters and squads of men they are likely to call in on you for firing on them. We seen at Ruby Ridge and Waco what the Government do to such rebelious elements. Sure its not legal for them to take your weapons around but take Jeb Bush for instance. One day he signing a law to prevent this. The next he is talking about taking them away if their is a statewide crisis and they are seen as a danger to troops. I don't trust his doubletalk one little bit.

Luckly where I am in NC its not going to suffer bad flooding and mass destruction that sees millions trapped in a city. Compared to New York, Charleston, Galvaston, Houston, the Gulf Coast or the west and east coasts that are in tsunami range to flood for miles or earthquakes. We get it quite mild, even when hurricanes go over. We do however have problems with the electrical grid. In the winter with icestorms the area can loose power for over a week to in some places up to a month. Luckly the ice can be harvested then to keep food cool. The house itself is rather sturdy and well built. We have a good garden on the land and plenty of critters to eat, but its going to have to be one helluva storm for that.

Our greatest problem tends to be the odd wild animal. You tend to get coyotes preying on dogs and the odd rabid animal that needs putting down. Its unlikely to get mass looting though there is the usual criminal element. Either the SKS or Ar15 would do fine, though I do prefer the 7.62x39 round. Of course I always have the Fal and plenty of full bolt action rifles for longer range and more knockdown.

 

[kfranz]

SKS's are cheap because "tax payers" in worker paradises already paid for them once. It ain't the rifle, it's the shooter.

Those who cite ammo problems, you are aware that Federal/American Eagle make x39, right? Not super cheap, but it's available.

 

[Ferrari308]

Ammo at that time was like $1.50 for like 300 Russian surplus rounds.

For $4.50 you would be set for WWIII!

 

[Technosavant]

$400 can get you an SKS, a scout mount, and a pretty nice optic (Ultradot, a decent ~2x pistol scope, stuff like that).

Depends on the SKS model. If it's a non-C&R Chinese, yeah, you can do it.

If you begin with the current plentiful model, the 59/66, plan to spend several hours cleaning it up, removing bayonet/grenade launcher/night sights, and then conforming to the 922(r) "10 or less" rule. By this time you are quite close to $300, if not $400, plus whatever your time is worth, and you haven't added optics yet. At this point, you may as well have started with some kind of AK, for all the accuracy you are going to see out of it (the SKS is a bit more accurate than the AK, but not by leaps and bounds).

I've said it and said it, and I'll keep on saying it: if you don't like the SKS as-is, you are best off looking at something else. The legal issues are very involved, and you can wind up with a gun that can buy you a couple years of jail if anybody ever looks at it real closely. Just be darn sure what it is that you are beginning with, and know exactly what you want out of it, and exactly how you plan to get there.

 

[BoySetsTheFire]

I agree that life starts at 30. The .223 just doesn't have the snot, especially when you are out there 100 to 200 yards.

The SKS shoots 2 MOA, which is sufficient to hit a torso sized target out at 300 yards, which is the battle setting for that rear sight.

But it's the shooter and not the rifle. Or to paraphrase Mick Strider, if you know Mick, your brain is the weapon, the knife is just a tool. Same goes for a gun.

I was out at the range a few weeks ago and three guys were shooting two ARs at the two benches to my right. I was shooting my Chinese SKS. They had no spotting scope and we were shooting 100 yards. They were commenting on which ammo was better for targets vs. moving game, which sight was preferred for this and that. Which gun was better balanced and one guy was just totally blown away by the "balance" of his AR. It was the best gun conversation I ever heard. After an hour, I destroyed the black on my target. The guys with the ARs (remember, they had no spotting scope) asked the range officer for their targets. He brought back two perfectly clean targets with no holes. The guy doing most of the talking said, "well, I guess I didn't bag anything today".

This doesn't prove that the SKS is better than the AR. It just proves that your gun can only shoot as good as you can. Pick the one you shoot best with!

 

[Stiletto Null]

If you begin with the current plentiful model, the 59/66, plan to spend several hours cleaning it up, removing bayonet/grenade launcher/night sights, and then conforming to the 922(r) "10 or less" rule. By this time you are quite close to $300, if not $400, plus whatever your time is worth, and you haven't added optics yet. At this point, you may as well have started with some kind of AK, for all the accuracy you are going to see out of it (the SKS is a bit more accurate than the AK, but not by leaps and bounds).

Eh?

Cosmo cleanup's a pain, but that comes with being a milsurp collector. Whatever.

Why would I want to remove the bayonet or grenade launcher, or restock at all?

A scout rail to replace the rear leaf will run you...$60. Right here.

Then stick an Ultradot on there, or a decent pistol scope, and you're good to go. Hell, you might be able to squeeze in a Leupold FX-II 2.5x28 Scout scope at $400 for platform...definitely if you go up to $450.

That's a pretty serious rifle for controlling a 200m radius, for not a lot of money.

922r would be fairly irrelevant for a SHTF scenario like we were verbally jousting about (AR-15s vs. a fire team of milsurps, lol). Legally, though, would it actually break any rules to use nonpermanent mods/retrofit gear as described?

 

[chrisbob]

removing the cosmoline

BRAKE PARTS CLEANER! I was told about this from a local dealer and his smith. It doesn't require removing any pressed pins. Break it down to the screws place the barrel & reciever intact including grenade launcher in a long tub "like a wall paper gluing or wetting container " spray the sh** out of it 2-3 cans let sit how ever long it takes until the brown stuff isn't coming out of the cracks . a little will come out as you shoot it when it gets hot. Then clean it as normal.

brake parts cleaner evaporates clean no residue. Caution don't let it evaporate w/ the gun in the solution!

This works for me I hope I can help
P.S. place all screws and parts in this solution and take them out one at a time when cleaning or oiling.
This is only for cosmo. covered parts right off the boat. I use it also on guns that have fired corrosive ammo. And barrels.

 

[gunsmith]

Bear??

You wanted to know how either would stack up against bear??

You want a .308 or a 30-06...for 3 or 4 hundred you can get a .308 Saiga
...Thats what I'm gonna do, I can not afford a cool rifle like a M1A or an AR10
but the .308 will at least slow down or kill your black bear and can reach your sniper at 3 to 5 hundred yards, when you get better and read up on sniper techniques you can upgrade to a good AR10...or a FAL type of rifle..or a M1 Garand for 30-06

For an interesting read, go to frugal squirrels and read "lights out" by halffast...

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/

http://www.survivalmonkey.com/Lights Out.htm

 

[B Easy]

I'd put my money on 10 guys with SKS' against 1 guy with an AR but let's be reasonable here.

I'm assuming the poll is about *your* gun, for *you*. So we're talking one gun here.

That said, the AR is a significantly better firearm in nearly every way, plain and simple.

Reliability? Well, I've never had any huge reliability problems with any AR with good mags and good ammo. Guatemalan milsurp jams me up sometimes even with good mags, but 193 and WWB are picture perfect every time. It's a precision weapon. You have to clean it.

Unless you're some 3rd world guerilla with a kindergarten level education that eats insects and vermin, the AR is going to be a much better weapon both in "the shootout" and in the long haul.

With the AR with good ammo, I'd expect a jam once every few hundred rounds at most. With the SKS probably less often, but the AR is light years ahead in terms of ergonomics, accuracy, weight, magazine capacity, recoil management, etc.

 

[Stiletto Null]

I voted the SKS simply because ARs are sufficiently expensive (read: more than FN49s, for crying out loud) that I will probably not buy one anytime even close to the near future.

If we were talking about $1000 SHTF rifles, I would be hauling out a worked-up FN49 in one of the FN49 chamberings—probably 8mm, just because I like the round.

If we were talking about general purpose SHTF rifles, I would be hauling out a slightly tricked-out SKS.

Someone once said "there is no such thing as SHTF past 150 yards", and I'll generally agree, especially since I currently live in an urban environment.

An AR would be nice, but I don't see it offering enough advantages over anything for me to actually bother with buying one.

 

[albanian]

I am a huge fan of the SKS but I must admit that the only thing an SKS has over a AR-15 is reliabilty. An AR-15 is more accurate, more compact, faster to reload, holds more shots, flatter shooting, ect.

If it were some situation where I was going to be away from any cleaning supplys and would be dragging the guns through mud, then I would take the SKS because I know it would work. The SKS is the most reliable semi-auto there is. I have no doubt that it is actually more reliable than the famed AK-47.

 

[No_Brakes23]

I like my Yugo SKS, but I'll take the modularity, accuracy, and 30-rnd box mags of the AR-15 anyday. Plus, I have messed up wrists, and pistol grip rifles are far easier to fire than standard grip rifles. I also have a lot more experience with the M16A2 than with the SKS.

Besides if you chose based soley on caliber, you can get an AR in 6.8RemSPC, so my vote still goes to the AR.

 

[Bluehawk]

The SKS is cheap because it is, essentially, a used gun. They also are lower quality (the tolerances aren't anywhere near those needed for an AR), made in an Eastern European nation (lower wages), and much simpler

I'm sorry but I can't stop laughing from reading that above quote!
The SKS is not lower quality..if you tried to make one today in the US it would cost as much if not more to produce than any AR rifle on the market since almost every major component is high quality steel machined to high tolerances whereas the AR parts are either cast or forged aluminum...very few parts are milled and only the barrel and fire control parts and springs/pins are steel and some of those parts from some sources are suspect!
The SKS is a simpler design? It uses two gas pistons...one forward and one to the rear with two heavy milled bolt/bolt carrier parts.
Fire control parts on the SKS are certainly not simpler than those used on the AR...take the trigger assembly on the SKS apart sometime and compare it's quality to the AR and tell me which is more complex and better made! Compare the trigger/hammer/sear springs on an SKS to an AR and tell me which ones you would rather bet your life on!
Pop a gas ring or two on a AR and your rifle is pretty much out of action...no such problem with an SKS. Bend a charging handle on an AR and see how fast that rifle is out of the picture! Put a kink in its gas tube and you're screwed! No easy fix in a fight for that problem!! If you think these problems haven't occured ask any service armorer!
The SKS is a well designed and battle proven carbine and will stay in my arsenal for as long as I live.
I prefer the larger heavier bullet of the SKS for man-sized targets...the AR is fine for rabbits!

 

[BoySetsTheFire]

B Easy said <With the AR with good ammo, I'd expect a jam once every few hundred rounds at most. With the SKS probably less often ...>

My Chinese SKS has never jammed through thousands of rounds. My friend has been shooting his Chinese SKS since the late 1980s, he shoots much more than I do, loads cheap corrosive crap only, and has never expeienced a jam. He shoots it all the time and NEVER cleans it. He just puts some WD40 through it when done - and we all know WD40 is a no-no.

I not only vote for the SKS, I am searching for another unissued Chinese. I will buy all I can find.

 

[No_Brakes23]

take the trigger assembly on the SKS apart sometime and compare it's quality to the AR and tell me which is more complex and better made! Compare the trigger/hammer/sear springs on an SKS to an AR and tell me which ones you would rather bet your life on!

Right, because you always hear about broken pins and slam fires with the AR. And we all know how those sloppy AR triggers creep all over the place, right? And SKS rifles NEVER ever stovepipe or jam.

Maybe a custom smithed SKS with some trigger work, a better pin and a spring retrofitted is better than an AR, but out of the box, (De-Cosmo'd of course,) they are some pretty rough stuff.

As for betting my life on it, I will take the one that has a pistol grip, better sights, (Though I put Mojos on my SKS,) and 30 round mags that feed reliably.

Oh yeah, and ammo that ranges won't through a hissy fit over is more readily availible for the AR.

Don't get me wrong, I actually own an SKS, and don't own an AR, (3 weeks left in Cali, then I can get one.) I think the M43 is an awesome round inside 300 meters. And the $180 I paid for my Yugo M59 certainly won't buy many ANY AR. But given the choice of platforms, I will take the AR every time.

 

[STAGE 2]

Right, because you always hear about broken pins and slam fires with the AR. And we all know how those sloppy AR triggers creep all over the place, right? And SKS rifles NEVER ever stovepipe or jam.

As much as I hate to disagree with a fellow San Diegan, the SKS is by far the more reliable rifle. Plus, it was originally designed to have a firing pin spring. Why the manufacturers decided to nix it I don't know, but I put my SKS back to spec and can shoot any and all kind of ammo, soft or hard primer without any worries.

As far as the trigger goes, well I'm sure it varies from rifle to rifle. I do know that the russians have very decent triggers. Mine certianly was no slouch.

Granted the AR is much better for hitting the target at any distance. But theres something to be said for the fact that the best trained most powerful army on the face of the earth cant keep the AR running properly whereas some peasant peon who has never seen a can of CLP can shoot all day without a hiccup.

 

[No_Brakes23]

Plus, it was originally designed to have a firing pin spring.

Simonov's design was good to go, but that isn't how it comes from the factory. Granted, a Kivaari job with Wolff springs will make it a whole new rifle, but that wasn't quite the OP's question as I understood it. (A smithed SKS IS still cheaper than an AR.)

But theres something to be said for the fact that the best trained most powerful army on the face of the earth cant keep the AR running properly whereas some peasant peon who has never seen a can of CLP can shoot [the SKS] all day without a hiccup.

I had 3 FTEs with my M59 within the first 200 rounds. Yes, I cleaned all the Cosmo out. Though to be fair, it was crap ammo, (Golden Tiger from Turner's) and I have had no trouble with WWB or Remington boxer-primed ammo. I have had a few M855 FTE in various M16A2s, but I have fired at least ten times as many of those as I have M43 through the SKS.

Also, though a Dragunov stock will make the rifle more ergonomic, no amount of work will fix the PITA of 10 round strippers versus 20/30 round box mags.

As far as the trigger goes, well I'm sure it varies from rifle to rifle. I do know that the russians have very decent triggers. Mine certianly was no slouch.

I have to give the SKS its due, here. Despite loads of complaints I hear about how bad the trigger is, I don't mind the pull on my Yugo.

 

[Glockman17366]

In a SHTF situation, I'm not looking for ultimate accuracy...I'm looking for a close (less then 30-40 yards) mankiller that can take a lot of abuse. In an anarchy, I don't think any of us are going to be maintaining our rifles as we should...and we'll need one that can deal with a lack of cleaning and still function...in the choices given, that's the SKS.

Of course, if the AK 47 had been a choice, that'd be my choice!

 

[Stiletto Null]

Firing pins: It's not like people haven't ever broken firing pins on <insert gun here>.

Slamfires: not if you keep the thing clean. IME, even just blasting the thing out with Breakfree spray is enough. If you actually disassemble the bolt (mine pwned my buddy's metal punch, so that may be harder than it sounds), then cleaning it is a matter of wiping it down and lubing it a little bit.

Trigger: yeah, the triggers suck ass. On the other hand, I've never heard of SKS triggers turning into release triggers.

Let's say we stick to iron sights...

SKS: $300 to get a decent trigger and some better sights
Gun: $150 for a nice 59/66
Trigger job: $75 to send it to Kivaari and get it back Real Nice
Williams Firesights or Tech Sights: $75

AR-15: $850?
Gun: $850 for a new Rock River Entry Tactical (I like the way these handle)

Yeah OK. So the SKS "needs work". It's still barely a third the cost of a nice AR, and I still haven't gotten used to pistol-gripped rifles. In fact, I don't even own one (yet).

For a reasonable SHTF situation (no zombies or anything, just roving bands of brigands, maybe looters, etc.), I doubt there's anything an AR will do for you which an SKS won't. People love hating on stripper clips, but it's not like they're that hard to use, and if I find myself in a situation where the few seconds' delay in reloading (compared to an AR) gets me in trouble, I'm not likely to make it out alive with an AR either.

 

[Borachon]

SKS.

I'm not worried about hordes of UN soldiers coming to my house to take my rifle. This is an unlikely scenario. What is far more likely is that you will have some incident occur at your home that does not rise to the level of "End of the World" but which could involve the use of your gun. And typically...I don't know why they do this...but the police like to involve themselves in these types of affairs. They act like they are getting PAID to do it or something. And I know for a fact that it is ENTIRELY possible that I'd have to surrender my rifle to a police officer if I were ever involved in a justified self defense shoot at my home. In fact I have in the past had this very thing happen.

The length of time that the police might keep my rifle (or pistol as was my case) could vary. If some question exists as to the facts of what happened, then my guns might remain in their custody for quite a period of time. In fact, I can picture in my mind the police taking ALL of my weapons away with them for investigative purposes for some indefinate period. Now...do I want them to be responsible for the care and maintanence of my highly accessorized $1500 AR-15 with custom stock, tactical light, red dot scope etc ad nauseum doo-dad rifle, or would I rather they took my $150 beater rifle that I can replace in a day? Two issues arise at this point. One, the police have now got my highly valuable rifle in their possession. The AR would make a NICE addition to the local police arsenal. I'm sure that the department would make far more of an effort to determine if my gun could be legally seized for their use. An effort they would NOT make for an SKS. Perhaps I'm being too cynical.
Secondly, when I invest 1500 in a rifle I typically don't allow it out of my sight. I'm not inclined to leave it with a friend for safe keeping. So when the police take ALL the guns from my house, they would have all my guns...period. Often the reason that you used your gun in the first place, which led to it's confiscation, was because of some problem. Your home was broken into, or some such. Sometimes the incident ends when they take your assaliant to the hospital...but sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes your problem may be ongoing. A relative of the person you shot may show up...which again is what happened in my case. The person who was robbing you may have been a neighbor. And you may have to see his cousins, friends ("homies"), and brothers 200 feet down the street.

Guns can be stolen. They can be taken legally by the police, and frequently either of these events can happen at a time when you would feel far better in having a gun. If you can afford 10 $1500 rifles...then no problem. Ignore what I've said. But I can't. But having 3 SKS rifles is within my budget. Therefore I advise people to purchase several firearms, and to be clever in where and how you store them. Luckily, the SKS is a quality firearm. That was a nice bonus for me.

SKS fits the bill on many levels.

 

[Eightball]

"if you can only have one gun" is the operative phrase, not 10 SKS's for the price of the mall-ninja-tactical AR you would otherwise choose.

I'm not a fan of AR's--hate the mechanism. Not a fan of .223, either. But I voted AR---if it was "no one for miles", I'd have a few thousand rounds more of .223 than x39 stocked in a hole of the same size (in theory), and .223 can kill more & leave more meat. Stick a 24" SS free-floater and a durable scope on top, and you're set--varmit hunting, good "anti-THEM" sniper rifle, or close-in high-cap semi. Just make sure you clean it.

I love my SKS, don't get me wrong. If I was in an URBAN environment, 300 yards MAX, with lotsa streets and medium-amounts of open space (not confined....SKS + Small space=bad), and it'll function like a tank, but it's heavy. Though, that pig-sticker in the end would come in handy.......

Depends on the situation. If, as the 1st poster said, it was rural area, I'd stick with a long-range AR. If it was kinda a medium open-spaced rural area, my SKS (ok, I'd cheat and take my AK, just because I have one already ) would be fine. If it was Iron Sights only.....I'd take an AR. Better, more accurate sights, and more rounds in an equal-weight magazine to use if I miss with that first aimed shot with 'them thar' Irons. I'm smart, and I'm skilled, but I'm not infinitely accurate, and those extra rounds would come in handy.