SKS vs AK at 100 yards, 50 yards iron sites only

[wacki]

Anyone know how the two compare using iron sights only? Some people claim 2.75" 10 groups and 0.95 3 groups w/ the SKS and TS200 sites:

http://www.tech-sights.com/about.htm

I shot a 0.93 inch group at 100 yards (two groups of three shots) yesterday at the Asheville Rifle and Pistol Club.

The American Eagle consistently shoots 2.75" ten shot groups (no flyers), which is the limit of my ability at 100 yards.

What is the limit of the AK with iron sites only?

 

[atblis]

Huh

Depends on the AK. Most are probably 3-4" guns on a good day.

Some of the better ones... 2" maybe.

SKS is probably about the same.

 

[mainmech48]

I'm always a bit skeptical when I hear tales of such exceptionally tight groups from an AK or SKS, regardless of the sights. IMO, garnered from a more-than-middlin' amount of observation and shooting experience with several examples of both and reems of published data from professional sources more knowledgable than myself, even the most heavily and expensively breathed-upon example of either fired by a World-class competition marksman would be hard pressed indeed to match some of them on any given day.

According to Marc Krebs, who makes perhaps the finest custom AKs extent, 2 1/2-3" for five shots at 100 M is about the best average that the design can be made to deliver. The insurmountable problem, again according to him, lies in the design of the gas system. In the AK system, there are always parts having considerable mass in-motion while the bullet is still in the barrel. These have one or more points of contact with parts in hard contact with the barrel during the firing cycle. The contact is random, and will affect the harmonic vibration pattern of the barrel differently with each shot, even with the best ammunition.

The SKS design suffers from the same basic flaw, if to a rather lesser extent as the mass in-motion is somewhat less and not directly attached to the bolt carrier. IMO&E, it is an exceptional SKS which will consistently deliver sub 2 1/2" groups for five shots at 100 M with its favorite ammo.

Also MO, but with most generic ammo brands and a marksman of reasonable skill 4-4 1/2" would be more representitive for either.

A high-quality aftermarket sight which increases the sight radius significantly, such as the Tech-200, would no doubt be of great help in extracting the best performance that a particular rifle and marksman combo might be capable of. In the hands of a good marksman, from a solid rest and with quality ammo, 2 3/4" for ten shots at 100 M, while still exceptional, would not be out of the question for some well-fitted SKS carbines.

I still believe that expecting this level of performance from your average SKS is pretty much setting oneself up for a major let-down. Expecting it from the average mil-config AK would make me wonder what one had been smoking.

As the late Colonel once said, "Marksmanship isn't what you did once; it's what you can deliver on-demand." Drawing conclusions about what one should expect to be able to deliver from a given weapon based on what someone else claims to have done once strikes me something to try and avoid.

 

[armoredman]

Good grief, I must be the worlds worst shot. I get 6 inch groups at 100 yards with iron sights and a Yugo SKS with decent ammo. That's minute-of-felon.



The WASR-10 does so-so with Wolf ammo, but, does OK at 50 yards with good quality stuff, better with the red dot. It's the wife's rifle, so I never really measured her groups, or ran it out too far for her to shoot right now.

 

[Slamfire]

Bought a bunch of Chinese and Russian SKS's when they were $79.00 and $125.00 each. While the Russian SKS's are better built, they do not shoot any better. I think a good SKS with Chinese ball ammo would group 4" at 100 yards. I think the average was between 4" and 6" at one hundred yards. Never shot one with match bullets, might make a little difference, but it won't make a 50% difference.

Never owned a AK. Thought they were overprices when they were $250.00, still think they are overpriced at $350.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I don't own an AK but I recently shot one with iron sights at a steel plate silhoutte at 150 yards and consistently hit it. That's good enough for me.
If you're looking for something better then you probably need to spend a little more on the gun.

 

[LaEscopeta]

I’ve read another problem with trying to get tight groups with a SKS or AK is the inherent inaccuracy of the 7.62 x 39 mm round. I understand the case is slightly wedge shaped (a little wider at the base, tapering slightly to where the neck starts.) The chambers have the same wedge shape, making it easier for rounds to feed & eject, even from dirty chambers and with slightly miss shaped rounds. A lot of people report pretty good accuracy (like 2 MOA or a little less) from .223 and .308 Saiga AK rifles, particularly with the 16” barrel versions. (If any of the above is wrong I'm sure I'll hear about it shortly)

 

[Caimlas]

Yugo SKSs shoot a bit better than most with the gas valve turned off. I've heard they can take as much as 1" off the group size (down to about 2") with it disabled.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

People exaggerate AK/SKS accuracy because they ether can't measure, shoot at closer distances than they think, or just want to tell fish tales.

Saiga rifles are probably the best made AK's out there. They have nice clean rifling, well made barrels, and a nice sharp crown.

They come with a certificate. It lists the accuracy of the rifle and that it passed inspection. Many owners have listed the results, and they are all about the same ~ 4". Factories put the firearms in a vise style rest, then just rapid fire. I assume they are using Barnaul or some other mass produced domestic military-grade ammunition.

With common Russian ammo, in the highest quality AK barrel/action out there, in a VISE ....they get 4" @ 100. That's the best you can hope for. Maybe if you handload with some premium bullets you can do better, but that's extremely rare for AK shooters.

Some people have rifles that do less, others a little more. But they typically fall around 4moa from a vise.

4" is a center of mass shot out to 200 yards. What more do you need? It's an AK.


Also, regardless of firearm quality - 7.62x39mm ammo would be a bottleneck. I seriously question people getting 2" from such ammo. It just isn't consistent enough.

 

[Plink]

It's a crapshoot when it comes to AK and SKS accuracy. Some shoot better than others, but none are target rifles. I've seen SKSes that can shoot under 2 inches at 100 yards reliably, but that was with handloads and the guns had trigger jobs and stable mounted optics (no receiver cover or gas tube mounts). Generally, an ak will do 6-8 inch groups at 100 yards and an SKS will do a little better. Maybe 4-6 inches. Again, some shoot much better, and some shoot much worse, especially with crappy ammo.

A lot of the problem with accuracy, crappy ammo aside, is the horrid triggers and short sight radius. A trigger job (or in the case of an AK, the Red Star Arms trigger group) and a better sighting system go a long way to realizing what accuracy the gun does have and groups tend to shrink accordingly.

Now there have been a few batches of imported ammo that was pretty good. The Romanian stuff was excellant in my guns. I still have a few cans of it. Barnaul shot groups about 1/3 tighter than Wolf. That Silver Bear "nipple effect" ammo that was available for a few years worked surprisingly well too.

 

[dstorm1911]

Terrible situation...... cause the custom Yugo AKs we build out here in Tucson, don't get shipped if they won't shoot under 2" at 100 yards....... from a machine rest zero human interferance on the shops fixed range (dead on 100 yards from the bolted down machine rest to the bullet trap...... we send a 10 shot test target with each of em I build if they won't shoot in two inches I tear em down and start all over.

The only thing left original on these rifles is...... well the trunions are of Yugo manufacture and the furniture, the gas tubes on some, the barrels are either Zastava (new hammer forged Yugo) at the cheaper end and Green mtn match grade USA made for a few bucks more, the bolts, bolt carriers are our own USA made (to much closer tolerances) the bolts are squared to the barrels rather than the usual not carring as long as it headspaces method used by Krebs and Saiga etc.. the recoil assemblies are early milled solid rather than the slightly lighter weigh twin wire found on all others, the FCGs are Redstar and set for a consistant 3 lb 2 stage pull when they leave the shop, the sights are original, fixed stock versions get an optics rail underfolders..... will once I design one that doesn't interfer with the folding stock......

I can close off the gas and put any of em into MOA accuracy... but then thats probably cause 7.62x39 is so inherently inaccurate.

We build 7.62x39 bolt guns that easily shoot sub minute of angle with match grade handloads...... the biggest handicap with SKS/AK accuracy has nothing to do with the weapons or theire design but with the shooters......

Here is one rifle I literally just threw together one morning outa the absolute most worn out parts set I could find takes me bout 30 minutes to do onea these basic assembly type builds........ the groups at the end of the artical were shot at the Pima county Sheriffs dept range in front of about 18 deputies........ it was a favor for the weapons instructor who wanted to give em an idea what a trained shooter could do with ANY rifle even a totally shot out AK

http://surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31796

The general consensus was that if I ever go nuts an start lookin for a shoot out....... most of the deputies would have other places to be especially as we are a SOT2 and normally build much much nastier toys.....

 

[NC-Mike]

I had my WASR 10 out the range recently and put about 50 rounds into a 4 inch group from about 65 yards. I had a 6x scope on the rifle.

The RO asked me if the weapon had any rifling left in it... :banghead:

 

[twinhairdryers]

I'd be doing cartwheels on the line if I grouped 4" at 100 yards with any AK

I have never seen a 4" group with optics from any AK or SKS at 100yards. I'd say 6 would be doing well with factory ammo. These are not built to hit dimes by snipers. They were built to put 1000 rounds of lead down in a short period of time without fouling up, jamning, or needing a baby bath cleaning like an AR.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I agree, 6" + is the norm at 100 yards. Basically "paper plate" is where it's at most of the time. I think 4" is possible as the Saiga certificates show, but they vise the gun down which completely eliminates user error.

 

[AK103K]

I would say 6" at 100 yards is a little excessive, 3-4" more like it. If you can shoot (this is probably the biggest issue, not the gun) and have a good lot of ammo, the AK's and SKS's will shoot.

The head portion on all the targets below is right around 6" for comparison.

Russian SKS 100 yards

Krebs AK103K (14" barrel) using Ultimak/Aimpoint 100 yards, from a cross legged sitting position

100 yards offhand

SAR1 open sights at 200 yards using Wolf 154 grain SP's. The lower group was from a rest to confirm zero, the upper was from a cross legged sitting position at a steady cadence.

 

[NC-Mike]

I have never seen a 4" group with optics from any AK or SKS at 100yards. I'd say 6 would be doing well with factory ammo.

That's right about where I would be as I was grouping around 4" at 65 yards.

Would have been a 6 or 7 inch group at 100 yards. I'm happy with that.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I have never seen a 4" group with optics from any AK or SKS at 100yards.

Next time I take my milled Arsenal w/ a Russian 8x to the range, I'll bring a
camera....or maybe do rolling video to show what is possible

 

[dstorm1911]

I know, it really annoys me when I hear people go on bout AKs only bein "Spray N pray" or "bullet hose" rifles etc... and in part is why I talked my partner into takin on buildin the tricked out Yugo rifles as the heavier RPK front trunion mated to the 1.5 mm reciever along with a NON-Chrome match grade barrel is a very solid platform, the hammer forged NON-Chrome barrel makes a much bigger difference in accuracy than most realize as chroming smooths over the sharp edges of the rifling , Chroming works great at reducing wear as there is less friction and if ya still have access to the old surplus corrosive ammo and refuse to clean your rifle it helps prevent corrosion but the tradeoff is the bullet doesn't get etched as well by the rifling, we can get Chrome lined barrels down to 2.5 - 3" groups easy enough but the NON-chromed Yugo barrels are much easier, I've got one I built 2 years ago with an original excellent condition barrel thats now got 12,000 rnds through it all Chinese corrosive steel core with BI-Metal jacket still tight as ever still extremally accurate......

The ones we build for customers are usually used by guys who just like to screw with the AR guys at the range by outshootin em with a .30 cal AK, we use a proprietary brake on em that is so effective it tames recoil down to the same or less than a .223 makes for very accurate rapid fire...... and if ya can't stop em with bullets ya can slap a grenade on the thing an go minute of minivan with the grenade sights Actually I've nailed a few Jackrabbits out here in the desert with Tennis ball dummy grenades at 100 yards many times its funny to watch em tryin to figure out where the noise came from and by the time they figure it out the Tennis ball knocks em over, doesn't kill em but shocks h@ll outa em...............

Pretty much all of the VZ58s we build will shoot MOA from the machine rest the lighter weight kills em though fireing offhand usually opens up to about 3" if ya could combine the heavier weight of a Yugo(more stable off hand) with the short stroke gas system of the VZ58 ya'd have a tack driver in 7.62x39

If the Chinese woulda ever actually trained their soldiers to shoot rather than just goin full auto we'd have been in trouble, they had the tools just didn't know how to properly use em....

 

[plexreticle]

Chinese didn't custom build their military AK's and they gave us a lot of trouble anyway.

3" group offhand? 100yds? Pretty good shooting there dstorm.

 

[Vic303]

My SKS is minute-of-head at 100yds. Plenty good enough for my needs. If I want precision, I have a 700VS to play with. If one has Kivaari do a trigger job on your SKS , and you put a Tech Sight on it, I suspect you can get a significant improvement in your groups.

 

[goon]

I think that caliber and ammo have a huge amount to do with it. Never tried the SKS for pure accuracy because it has always been adequate (to me) for what it would be needed for. I used to be able to make headshots with mine at 100 yards and I have hit steel targets consistently out to 300 with it.
The AK's I have had ranged greatly. Best I ever shot was the VEPR K .223 I had. With UMC ammo and a warm barrel from a rested prone at 100 yards, I put 10 shots into under two inches with many of the shots touching. I am sure someone will call me a liar. That doesn't make it any less true.
Incidentally, I also sold that AK because it balanced like a telephone pole.

 

[AK103K]

I know, it really annoys me when I hear people go on bout AKs only bein "Spray N pray" or "bullet hose" rifles etc...

I'd be willing to bet that those who usually complain couldnt hit with ANYTHING you gave them from a field position, and would probably even have troubles off a bench. Then theres always the AK "poor ergonomics" excuses.

I think that caliber and ammo have a huge amount to do with it.

Ammo usually is the culprit when it comes to accuracy, and Wolf is usually the one what gives the most grief. Even then, 6" at 100 yards isnt the norm. I've found the old Barnaul SP's to be the most accurate and consistent of the lot. I believe they are now selling it under one of the "Bear" brands now. I got a couple of cases of that Wolf 154 grain SP's awhile back, and its been doing quite well. Wolf seems to vary a good bit from lot to lot, so if you get a lot that shoots and can get more, I'd do it.

 

[RevolvingCylinder]

I’ve read another problem with trying to get tight groups with a SKS or AK is the inherent inaccuracy of the 7.62 x 39 mm round. I understand the case is slightly wedge shaped (a little wider at the base, tapering slightly to where the neck starts.) The chambers have the same wedge shape, making it easier for rounds to feed & eject, even from dirty chambers and with slightly miss shaped rounds.

I guess those accurate benchrest wildcats based on this cartridge don't really exist. You better tell those benchrest shooters your wedge theory to spare them from this cartridge.

 

[dstorm1911]

Plexretical, not really I can usually take a rifle that will shoot MOA in the rest and only add 1" or less fireing offhand with sling but the VZ58 is so light it tends to float too much. I spent almost 10 years shooting for Uncle same, 3" groups was excessive back in those days