SKS-45 vs. AK-47

[TooTaxed]

The SKS has both a longer barrel and longer sight distance than the AK...In Vietnam we occasionally saw them being used as sniper rifles. The AK is strictly a short-range assault rifle...but for that it's great! But for range use the SKS is my choice. I can hit the 360-yd gong at Ft. Benning's English Range with every shot... And, that long vertical magazine on the AK simply is in the way when firing from a bench or prone.

 

[The_Antibubba]

you only THINK you have an AK

What you are shooting is an "AK-47 style semi-automatic rifle", not a true AK-47 Assault Rifle. The real AK was designed to allow waves of illiterate peasants to overwhelm better trained, better equipped enemy soldiers. They can be cleaned with gasoline or with a garden hose. They can be stamped out and assembled in any factory, or made one at a time with hand tools in Hassan's backyard forge. They are cheap, rugged, and there are over half a billion (estimated) of them on the planet. They do exactly what they were designed to do. Accuracy is third or fourth on the list of requirements, if that high. Accuracy is for sharpshooters with Mosins or, later, Dragunovs.

In contrast, your super-accurate "AK" was most likely (for compliance reasons) made in the US, with the latest alloys and computer measurements, with a redesign to allow only semiauto function. Aimed single shots are going to be more accurate than spray and pray, and since you know that your ammo is designed to strict tolerances, consistent, clean, and reliable, you design it to have tighter tolerances and better fit. It'll go to someone who has read every article and book on all things Kalashnikov, at a price that would buy ten of Hassan's, plus ammo. And that's not even considering all the handloads that have been put together for it. And even if yours is 100% Com-Bloc, someone still had to put in a semiauto sear and assembly-and that still means it isn't what you see on the news being used by terrorists and Third World paramilitaries. It's a whole new animal.

To misquote a popular ad, "It's not your Babushka's Kalashnikov".

I won't tell you that the SKS is a precision tackdriver, but one thing I can say is that, apart from import marks, you are holding the very same rifle that the soldier used. My Yugo even came with a logbook of the inspection, firing, and maintenance it underwent. As a main battle rifle it cannot compete with the AK-they represent two different eras of infantry weapon, two different ways of thinking; the AK the start of the new, the SKS as the end of the old.

I happen to prefer the SKS; I think they're the very last main battle rifle to have even a sense of the "human touch" in them. I certainly wouldn't compare it to a Mauser for aesthetics! But almost everything that follows leans toward cold, insectile efficiency-or as High Roaders and advertisers would put it, "Tacticality". I mean, on an SKS we polish up the wood to bring out the grain; on an AK or AR we add more fixture points and carbon fiber. I've seen SKSs in synthetic stocks, and they just don't look right.

On the battlefield, though, I'd pick the AK-it's hard to argue against detachable mags and indestructibility.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, only a handful of semi AK's have US-made core components such as receiver and barrel. The SAR-1, for example, is made by Romanians on the same equipment that makes selective fire AK's. It has a certain number of non-imported parts added as part of the importation process, but not the core parts. It's not just an AK in name. Though maybe in Kalifornistan your laws require the AK's to be so changed that they cease to be AK's. I understand you have different laws there.

 

[MCgunner]

I happen to prefer the SKS; I think they're the very last main battle rifle to have even a sense of the "human touch" in them. I certainly wouldn't compare it to a Mauser for aesthetics! But almost everything that follows leans toward cold, insectile efficiency-or as High Roaders and advertisers would put it, "Tacticality".

The M14 came well after the SKS and I think it's a lot better looking and more traditional looking than any SKS. The M14 is basically an M1 with a removable box magazine in 7.62x51.

 

[clange]

Ok. Yeah... that makes sense :

When I was in Iraq, I carried an AK part of the time. It shot fine for me. Of course, cutting the stock off past the rear trunnion, shooting from the hip, and running around screaming at the top of your lungs can do nasty things to accuracy. You know, the M16A2 doesnt have the greatest trigger in the world either

He posts that ???? in every AK thread he can find.

 

[benEzra]

Hmmm.

My wife has a 1952 Tula SKS, the nicest example of an SKS I've ever seen. I own a 2002 SAR-1.

In my experience, the SKS is slightly more accurate, though the SAR gives it a run for its money from a cold barrel (i've gotten 2.5 MOA on occasion under those conditions).

Ergonomics--the SKS safety is easier to work, but to me that is the ONLY ergonomic advantage of the SKS. The SAR's pistol grip stock is much more ergnomic for firing from the shoulder than the SKS, to me. And in closer quarters, the SAR is SO much easier to handle than an SKS. Out of curiosity, I've tried moving through the house with both rifles, and honestly it amazes me that ANYONE could use an SKS effectively in CQB. The SKS is also awfully front-heavy compared to the SAR-1, which is much more nicely balanced.

Regarding going prone--if you limit the SAR to a 10-round mag like the SKS has, you can go prone just as easily as with an SKS...even a Hungarian 20-round tanker magazine will work pretty well from prone.

To each his own, but I think the AK design is just as good as the SKS, roughly as effective at range and far more versatile. Even limited to non-automatic civvie AK lookalikes, I much prefer the Kalashnikov design.

 

[Crosshair]

What you are shooting is an "AK-47 style semi-automatic rifle", not a true AK-47 Assault Rifle. The real AK was designed to allow waves of illiterate peasants to overwhelm better trained, better equipped enemy soldiers. They can be cleaned with gasoline or with a garden hose. They can be stamped out and assembled in any factory, or made one at a time with hand tools in Hassan's backyard forge. They are cheap, rugged, and there are over half a billion (estimated) of them on the planet. They do exactly what they were designed to do. Accuracy is third or fourth on the list of requirements, if that high. Accuracy is for sharpshooters with Mosins or, later, Dragunovs.

In contrast, your super-accurate "AK" was most likely (for compliance reasons) made in the US, with the latest alloys and computer measurements, with a redesign to allow only semiauto function. Aimed single shots are going to be more accurate than spray and pray, and since you know that your ammo is designed to strict tolerances, consistent, clean, and reliable, you design it to have tighter tolerances and better fit. It'll go to someone who has read every article and book on all things Kalashnikov, at a price that would buy ten of Hassan's, plus ammo. And that's not even considering all the handloads that have been put together for it. And even if yours is 100% Com-Bloc, someone still had to put in a semiauto sear and assembly-and that still means it isn't what you see on the news being used by terrorists and Third World paramilitaries. It's a whole new animal.

Hm, I guess my Saiga has "Made in Russia" and the Izhmash Arsenal stamped on it for just for looks then. Fact is that most AKs are made by other countries arsenals to make money for those countries. We here in the US just have to screw around with the stupid 10 parts rule.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

deleted, for my own sake.

 

[clange]

I wasnt attacking you at all, I'm saying that guys an idiot for posting nothing but trash in every AK thread.

 

[Feanaro]

It seems quite obvious to me that Clange is referring to georgeduz's post, which you had quoted. Slow down before ya' call other people chuckle-heads. Can you imagine how badly someone actually suffering from chuckling of the head would feel?

Back on topic. I've not a great deal of experience with the AK but when I have played with it, I didn't like it. The ergonomics are not good for me and everything seems to be in the wrong place. The SKS suffers from having the bolt knob on the wrong side and bad sights but the safety is pretty easy to operate. Ergonomics are better but the stock is still too short. Stick an AK magazine on the SKS and we'd have something.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

I wasnt attacking you at all, I'm saying that guys an idiot for posting nothing but trash in every AK thread. Thanks for the '???? you' though.

Oh... I'm sorry. :banghead: I just made an ass of myself, I suppose. I noticed my own text being quoted and thought you were referring to me. Oops.

 

[clange]

No worries.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Ahh...the classic purists vs. pragmatists battle. "It isn't an AK unless it's select fire" Well yeah, technically so...


It is the same in the AR-15 world. You tell someone that a Colt 6920 is an M4 minus the full auto parts and 1.5" more of barrel and they freak out. The only differences are that which the law mandates. Quality of contruction, quality of materials, and quality control are all the same. That's really what people are after.


I believe these people who bash rifles and insist that they aren't "mil-spec" because of select fire status or barrel length are probably doing so to justify their own rifles that are less "mil-spec"...


BTW, I have no problems at all inserting a magazine into my SKS-M. I can do it almost as easy, and almost as fast as I can with an AK. Difference is quite small, and I wouldn't categorize it as akward or difficult at all. Maybe it's me.

 

[mndfusion]

I like both!

The Ak is more fun, you dont have to load it all the time and I've found them to be just as accurate.

 

[mrmeval]

They don't aim at all in most cases. If they used aimed fire they'd be far more effective. afaikt they have a 'magic wand' understanding of the AK with no real idea about how to really use it. I've not checked but I suspect a lot of those Iraqi AKs are Russian and should be good quality to start with but do not know how well the weapons are maintained, again the 'magic wand' comes into play.

ak,s are not good for any battle,look what happened in iraq,they couldnt hit us and they where trying real hard.and only hits count.in 3rd world countries they sell for 50 dollars .crappy trigger cheeply made.friends dont let friends shoot ak,s.

 

[MCgunner]

Back on topic. I've not a great deal of experience with the AK but when I have played with it, I didn't like it. The ergonomics are not good for me and everything seems to be in the wrong place. The SKS suffers from having the bolt knob on the wrong side and bad sights but the safety is pretty easy to operate. Ergonomics are better but the stock is still too short. Stick an AK magazine on the SKS and we'd have something.

I don't really look at SKSs and such much anymore, but you can, or could, buy an SKS adapted to accept AK mags.

I thought the short stock problem was specific to chinese SKSs. Guess not. All the ones I was getting way back when were Chinese. That's before Clinton put the halt to the Chinese imports for a while. You could get a butt extension for it, I had one. It just bolted over the butt plate. I eventually bought aftermarket stocks for both of mine. They're fun toys and down right cheap to shoot. If the AK turns you on more, same ammo, dirt cheap. The world needs more cheap, fun gun toys.

 

[armoredman]

...The world needs more cheap, fun gun toys.

And the heavens thundered, and angels sang, and Lo! The Yugo was brought forth...

 

[chopinbloc]

aaaaaaaaarrrrrrgghhh!

i knew it had to happen. there is this group of people that feel the yugo is a reliable rifle. cheap? yes. fun? sure, until it starts sticking. the gas valve wears out and the rifle becomes a bolt action. a remarkably sticky bolt action. i imagine the m59 doesn't have this problem but my experience with the m59/66 and an amazing number of similar reports indicates that the versions with a gas cutoff have a very limited life. especially if purchased in less than pristine condition. won't be much longer before these crappy yugos give all sks rifles a reputation for unreliability.

armoredman, i respect you and i almost always agree with your posts but i can't hang with this one. the yugo is a problem waiting to happen at best and i wouldn't shed a tear if every one of them (the m59/66s, anyway) were fed into the clintonista's incinerators.

 

[armoredman]

S'alright - I have one unissued that works very well, and plan to get another soon. When I hung out at Survivors SKS board, their consensus was the Yugo is a decent rifle.
But, just for the sake of argument, for grins and giggles, for those who reall want to know - how would you premamnantly seal the grenade launcher gas shut off valve so it will never leak? I can't imagine anyone here really has a supply of NATO grenades laying about...
BTW, my wife might be very unhappy if someone took her Yugo to feed into an incinerator....

 

[MechAg94]

Sure the Yugo is a decent rifle for the money, but I installed Tech Sights and they are hitched all the way to the left with to front sight all they way to the right to get the rifle to hit the center of the target at 100 yards.

My Vepr K is made in Russia and it is well made, accurate, and easy to shoot. The mag changes are easy. I was popping 4" clays at 100 yards with no problems at all. Very fun rifle to shoot.

 

[Average Joe]

I like the SKS better, because, I prefer stripper clips to mags, and I like the fact, that the SKS bolt will hold open on the last round, where the AK doesn't.

 

[dasmi]

ak,s are not good for any battle,look what happened in iraq,they couldnt hit us and they where trying real hard.and only hits count.in 3rd world countries they sell for 50 dollars .crappy trigger cheeply made.friends dont let friends shoot ak,s.

Crappy shooting and poor training aren't the fault of the rifle.
Friends don't let friends type like that.

 

[Cosmoline]

Check out how much SKS ammo you can fit in just one side of a pair of saddle bags:





Could you fit ten loaded thirty round AK mags in there? I think you'd need a very large duffle bag.

 

[AK103K]

Could you fit ten loaded thirty round AK mags in there? I think you'd need a very large duffle bag.

My chest rig will hold 12 AK mags, but you had best eat your Wheaties.
8 is a lot more comfortable.

The problem I have with most of the SKS strippers is, they dont hold the rounds very well and most are 1-2 rounds short every time I grab one. I keep ammo on the strippers for use with the Chinese AK mag loaders, which do work fairly well once you get the knack down.

I still seriously doubt you could keep up round for round with an SKS against an AK, if all you were trying to do was put rounds down range. I can easily load an AK mag in the time it takes to load a stripper and you would need to load the SKS two more times to my one.

I never understood all the complaints about the AK's lack of bolt hold open. When the gun stops running, I just reload it, just like I do with a rifle that has the bolt stop. No biggie.

Another thing I dont understand is the accuracy complaints. From realistic field positions, my AK's, even the less refined Romanians, will still shoot as well as most anything else at realistic ranges, and this is especially true of AK's equipped with a forward mounted red dot.

 

[Cosmoline]

still seriously doubt you could keep up round for round with an SKS against an AK, if all you were trying to do was put rounds down range. I can easily load an AK mag in the time it takes to load a stripper and you would need to load the SKS two more times to my one.

Who was suggesting otherwise? The AK can of course throw more lead down range in the same amount of time. That gives it an edge in delivering suppressive fire.

I'd like to see you fit ten or even four AK mags in the same amount of space I can fit 300 SKS rounds. This gives the SKS a huge edge as a scouting rifle. An AK's chest rig is bulky and extremely heavy. It's designed to be taken into front line combat. I see no advantage to it unless you're going to have a prolonged, classic USSR vs. US firefight.