Sloppy Work From Springfield Armory

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's Folk's-

Just thought you all might like to know that I examined a brand NIB
Springfield Armory .45 caliber Operator yesterday in our gun
shop. Overall appearance at first glance, the Operator looked good.
But upon closer examination, the extractor stuck out the rear of the
slide by a good 1/8", and the night sights where cut at a right cant.
Now, these firearms are suppose to be Springfields "cream of the
crop", put together by "high dollar" expert gunsmith's. But, for a
gun in the price range of the upper end Kimber's, this is totally
unacceptable. So much so, that we didn't even put the firearm
in the showcase for viewing until we have a chace to speak with
a Springfield QC representative 'bout the problem. So, the moral
of this story is LOOK and inspect each weapon carefully
before purchase!

 

[Bobby Lee]

SA's quality control has gone downhill in the last few years.

You can really see it in their recently produced rifles.

 

[wally]

What gets me is people will buy an expensive Kimber or Springfield, have problems out of the box, send it back for repair, get it fixed, and then rant about what a great gun and customer service they recieved. OTOH they'll get an Armscor, Charles Daly, RIA, etc. have the same minor problems and rant about what a POS they got without even giving them a chance to make it right. To me a problem with a $400 gun is much less an issue than the same problem with an $800+ gun.

Sad fact of life, "modern" business practices says a 3-5% failure rate with the end customer doing the QA/QC is more profitable, so that's what we are stuck with.

--wally.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Dan please let us know how Springfield handles it.

 

[mpthole]

Yes, Dan please keep us posted. I just sent my Loaded model back to them to have the sights fixed. Guess I'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Now, these firearms are suppose to be Springfields "cream of the

Nope. Made in Brazil by IMBEL, assembled with very minor fitting at that level. A few facts need to be faced:

- A good 1911 is a labor-intensive pistol to make, properly fitted.
- 1911(s) pre-1950 were reliable since they received this fitting.
- Since then, materials got cheaper, and labor more expensive. It was the other way around before.
- It is a world economy. You'll go out of business making a cheaper pistola with high labor costs.
- Low dollar 1911's don't get much hand fitting and tuning these days. Hence the 1911(s) reputation for quality and reliability suffer.

The Professional and the TGO I are the ones the custom shop ones, although the TRP series are supposed to get some extra fitting. (I don't believe the MC Operator model gets any fitting).

I don't consider the Operators 'High Dollar' springers.

IME, the Springer custom shop does excellent work, but the base pistolas don't get it (loaded(s), Mil-spec(s), GI(s)). They're just assembled, not tuned.

I WILL bet the custom shop will fix it to your satisfaction. They do do repairs to the base models.

With respect to the SA custom shop's work, I'm impressed. I had the custom shop assemble my 'bag-o-parts-springer-frame-colt-slide' 1911, (to my taste and specs) and it's like cinderella. Nobody who picks it up wants to put it down (pic below, 5K+ and not one FTF, FTE that wasn't magazine-ammo related.)...

I think there is three levels of Springers:

- Base. IMBEL parts assembled for basic function in the US. (GI, Mil-Spec, Loaded)

- Semi-fitted. Slides/frames matched be selecting parts that fit, and doing a bit of extra fitting. (You'll notice that TRP(s) and Tropy Match(es) have the serial number's final digits etched on the slide as they are matched.)

- Custom Shop. The Professional, TGO I - Hand fitted, selected parts, less MIM. THESE are the 'cream of the crop'. You can debate whether the extra $1700 is worth it, but if you pick up a Mil-Spec and a Professional, you'll see/feel a huge difference.

One last point, I've seen some of the base pistolas sent back to Springfield come back better than a base-pistola that had no issues. If you mention that you have a gritty trigger, the custom shop will do a trigger job for free too...they try to keep folks happy. In the long run, you might be better off, barring the service headache, from having the pistola sent back.

 

[Ed]

- Semi-fitted. Slides/frames matched be selecting parts that fit, and doing a bit of extra fitting. (You'll notice that TRP(s) and Tropy Match(es) have the serial number's final digits etched on the slide as they are matched.)


I got a Springfield Loaded Lightweight Champion that has the last 4 on the slide.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Ed, I believe that's what that is. My understanding is also that, in the WWI-WWII days, quality was kept high be hand selecting, say, a bushing that fit the barrel and slide well, from a set of matched barrels and bushings. Before CNC, things like matching the best fitting slides and frames, with a bit of fitting, achieved quality that we strive for with CNC, and less hand labor, now.

I didn't know that model had the hand fitting though. I don't believe the GI(s), and MilSpecs have the serial numbers on the slides...

The Pro(s) have a tight, solid, smoothness, and 'snick' to the safety...

 

[Bobby Lee]

In the old days if a worker was an idiot or he did not do his job correctly he was fired on the spot.

The people that made weapons for the military did not have a quality control problem because if they did they lost their contract.

They did not produce weapons that needed to be sent back under warranty. If that weapon failed because some idiot at the factory did not do his job someone could die as a result.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

QC problems, labor issues, cutting corners for profit, and even labor strikes DID occur in the past AND during WWII here in the US.

These problems are nothing new. We don't have a lock on idiots and laziness today.

 

[guy sajer]

In the old days if a worker was an idiot or he did not do his job correctly he was fired on the spot.

No doubt this is true in many cases .

However , Colt used to handle it a different way . At one time , numbers/letters were stamped into the handgun to identify the worker/workers involved in making it . If a gun came back defective , the worker responsible stayed after hours without pay to make the needed repairs . ***I think this concept today would solve a lot of QC issues we see in todays gun market . imo

 

[mec]

Quality assurance.....

"....repair, get it fixed, and then rant about what a great gun and customer service they recieved...."

How true. They are very polite and they fix things pretty quick. Of course, the things don't always stay fixed. I got an early basic civilian finished Spring field armory back in the 80s or 90s. Extractor relaxed after about 900 rounds- not an uncommon event with various 1911s. they replaced it with a smile. Next thing- the soft firing pin began peening itself into the firing pin stop and eventually wouldn't set off the primers. I put in a Remington Rand pin and that fixed that. Last thing was something fell down inside the action and locked everything up. They fixed that and I got rid of the gun. Very polite all the way through.

Just after they switched over to titanium firing pins and some other tech stuff a few years ago, I bought a Milspec. After I had it basically rebuilt by Alex Hamilton, it was real accurate. As it came from the box; however, it would not set off primers, the extractor went lax after the usual 900 rounds, The barrel channel in the slide was bored off center and over large. One of the gun magazines was entertaining an article on this gun and told me they had really gotten onto SA about all the quality problems. Said not to "be too hard on them" in the article. I guess I named off too many problems because neither the article nor any other information about the quality control issues ever made it into print.

After the new milspekier Milspec came out, I've heard from several satisfied owners that the guns are accurate and function very well even after well over 1,000 rounds. A long-time distributor in the Southwest told me that this sort of thing has been going on since he got into the business 40 years ago. Gun companies, particularly those that make 1911s, will rock along with good quality for a while then get sloppy with quality control and let a bunch of turkeys out the door. Eventually, the distributors get pretty upset about all the send-backs and they re-invent quality control.

 

[Jammer Six]

If a gun came back defective , the worker responsible stayed after hours without pay to make the needed repairs . ***I think this concept today would solve a lot of QC issues we see in todays gun market .

Do you know how many people on this board would begin railing about employers taking advantage of employees if this happened?

There are many ways to improve quality without taking advantage of other people.

 

[Ala Dan]

Not To Mislead Anyone

Greeting's All-

The Springer MC Operator in question IS NOT my personal weapon, but
rather a brand NIB model that we have for sale at our gunshop. If I sold
this gun as is, I would feel really quilty that perhaps the potential buyer
would discover the same problems that I mentioned, and therefore might
refuse to shop with us again! I think the solution is too notify Springfield
and politely explain the situation, and try to get it resolved before the
sale. I will be contacting Springfields customer service on Tuesday 7-5.

BTW, as for the "feel" of the gun I like it very much; but I don't think I
would trade my newly acquired 5" Kimber Raptor for it? But I do own
other Springfield 1911's thats fit and finish are surperb, and their function
has been flawless too date.

 

[Bobby Lee]

There are many ways to improve quality without taking advantage of other people.

I don't know how the rest of you feel and I don't really care but if I hire someone to work for me he is required to to the job I give him.

If he will not do it or is not capable of doing it I will fire his ass and find someone that can do the work. Untill I could find someone that is capable of doing to job correctly production would stop.

Also you don't hire temp workers and offer them an hours training and leave them alone and expect them to be able to build a 1911.


If SA Inc looked at it like I do they would not have these problems.

 

[guy sajer]

Do you know how many people on this board would begin railing about employers taking advantage of employees if this happened?

There are many ways to improve quality without taking advantage of other people.

What are you talking about ? Taking advantage of who ?
I'm talking about the worker getting paid to do a job right and not getting paid again to do the same job on the same firearm . You wanna bet that QC wouldn't sky rocket . It'll never happen , but it's definately not taking advantage . Off hand it sounds like a few of the workers are taking advantage of the gun companies .

I doubt if anyone would be complaining if their 1911's worked direct from the box without paying a custom smith to tune it or having to return it back to the company and wait 2 months to get back the new gun they just bought and only had in their possession for a couple days . You would've been able to spend time at the range instead of on the internet complaining about your Micro that didn't work .

 

[mec]

"I think the solution is too notify Springfield
and politely explain the situation, and try to get it resolved before the
sale. I will be contacting Springfields customer service on Tuesday 7-..."

This is a very responsible approach. Many dealers just take the malfunctioning pistols back after the customer has discovered problems and return them to the manufacturer. Your solution shows that you really care about the quality of your business. Even though it is July and hot outside and the prosac has settled into the silt on the bottom of the reservoirs, I hope nobody decides to flame you for it.

 

[Ala Dan]

Thanks mec my friend!

 

[deputy tom]

Dan,I salute you for being pro-active instead of like some others usual re-active approach.tom.

 

[TimboKhan]

What gets me is people will buy an expensive Kimber or Springfield, have problems out of the box, send it back for repair, get it fixed, and then rant about what a great gun and customer service they recieved. OTOH they'll get an Armscor, Charles Daly, RIA, etc. have the same minor problems and rant about what a POS they got without even giving them a chance to make it right. To me a problem with a $400 gun is much less an issue than the same problem with an $800+ gun.

God bless you for your rational, logical opinion, Wally. It's possible that I could agree more with you, I suppose, but I am not sure how.

Timboi

 

[Ala Dan]

Many thanks deputy tom my friend for the kind words!

Latest Update: Springfield Armory has agreed to to solve all of the
aforementioned problems on the Springer MC Operator, and the gun
should have less than a two week turn around time. I look forward
to the outcome, as the Springer Operator is a very nice handgun.