Slugs have a different point of impact than buckshot?

[WeedWhacker]

I've been shooting a bunch of buckshot and slugs through a 19" open-choke Saiga-12, and notice that while shot impacts at or very near the point of aim, the rifled slugs I'd used impact about 8-10" to the right at 25 yards, consistantly. Admittedly, I was using just one brand of rifled slugs (Federal 1oz 2.75"), as the other inexpensive brand available would catch in the magazine wells occasionally.

Is this common? The shotgun's sights are not adjustable by anything other than a brass punch and hammer - what solutions have other folks come up with to deal with such issues?

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

In my limited experience (though with a wide variety of buck shot and S&B and Wolf brand slugs) with a Benelli 1014 LE, I have not had this problem. To be that far off at 25 yards seems impossible if everything is operating correctly. I'm surprised your shotgun has jams with other brands of slugs, considering its Izmash (right?). The worst I've seen with my Benelli is ocassional short-strokes with Wolf (Spanish) bird shot. I'm guessing the slug might be "catching" on something, as in if it doesn't jam, it still catches on it. Maybe even Izmash produces lemons.

 

[WeedWhacker]

The problems with the Winchester Super-X slugs weren't jams, but were Failures To Feed. The next round would "stick" in position inside the magazine long enough to be missed by the bolt. It's not all that relevant to the issue with the different point of impact with slugs, however.

As for the problem, my first thought was to buy some IC choke tubes for it and try again, and with different brands and types of slugs. Before I did that, however, might as well see what wisdom the innernet has to offer.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I've never had slugs and buck shoot to the same POA, though your case is more extreme than IME.

Usually the differences are in elevation more than windage.

I zero for what is most likely to be used and hold off for the other load.

Try some different loads and see what happens....

 

[Owen]

I was having that problem with my shotgun, so I went to reduced recoil slugs. That definately fixed the problem.

 

[Gordon]

yup just a common as corn flakes shotgun problem!

First, not to insult your ability, but are you firing from a prone position(or other 'supported ' by body parts postion) like you should to sight in your slugs?Second a left hand hit for a right hander MIGHT be caused by 'hooking' the trigger. Concentrate on press-reset. Be thinking about the reset rather than where you are hitting-it helps.

Then there is the mystery of slug impact and choke tubes. Yes another tube might hit somewhere else, it usually does!It also is effected by how the choke tube seats (how much torque and how clean the threads)into the barrel, I make everything as right as I can and scratch tiny witness lines across the tube end and bottom of barrel to eliminate future shock

Third I think you can use a sight pusher if the brass drift doesn't appeal to you.$50 bucks well spent if you are into guns and have a few.I would not worry about the impact of the cloud of shot, I think you'll find it close enough.

Lastly - brands of slugs: Rem reduced recoil are reliable feeders and very consistent and accurate as are Fed 'Tactical' ones. They hit in a different place-for sure. BUT in all the autoloaders I have I stick to full power slugs(and buck) and the Brenneke KO are available very reasonably and have a big wallop and cycle everything I've tried them in so far-flawlessly.So do the 'real' Brennekes but they are much more expensive. For some reason Win. slugs (and to an extent buck) seem to hang up more frequently in LEO qualifacations and training I've observed. than MOST other brands.

 

[sm]

19" open-choke Saiga-12,

Correia - where are you?

I am not familar with these Saiga's.

I have questions:

-Forcing cone
-Bore Dia
-POC
-etc.

---

As Dave shared, POA/POI do vary b/t slugs and buckshot loads.

Same principle we have shared as to why it does not matter what a barrel is marked, or choke says, or box of ammo has written on the box.

Only the pattern board / shooting for groups define what YOUR gun will do.

--

Reliablity is the most important to me, then I go to the POA/POI. Another reason why I personally prefer to test loads local to me.

I want to be able to test a variety and have known loads and what they do, so if I need to buy something at the bait shop, or someone has a couple of choices in their home, truck, farm shed, I know which of these do what in MY gun.

Gives me an advantage, though each gun is different, if a gun I have never fired before is handed to me, I have pretty good chance of picking the better load from a bunch in a coffee can, box, rolling around a tool box...etc.

--

See here for specs: http://www.colonialarms.com/chokespecs.html

I personally want some choke. Each gun is different, and my experiences have been some choke is needed . Using layman's measurements, SKeet, SKeetI, , Improved Cylinder ,SKeet IIor Modified.

I have always felt a 12 gauge , with a 21" barrel with SKeetII - Mod was the best set up for shooting buckshot and slugs, if one needed a short barrel, 23" adds some additional Art&Science - in many cases.

I asked about Saiga's barrel for a reason - I have seen too many times a barrel have a wee bit of Forcing Cone work done, and the POA/POI get real darn close[er] if in fact not "right on".

One reason I am so against "whacking off" a barrel, and NO choke at all as some do for a truck gun. All the legal stuff aside.

For instance I use a NEF Youth 20 gauge, fixed barrel marked Modified. Shoots slug groups so well ! It also tosses #3 buckshot to same [within a frog's hair] POA/POI. IN fact it patterns so many pellet loads so well.

I keep getting reports of Reduced Recoil not having penetration.
Add, the Win reduced loads have this "ball" that bounces back.

Brenneke Slugs in 2 3/4 work! Darn things are that accurate -period.

Federal is my preferred loading in my guns - I use nothing buy 2 3/4" regular old slugs, and 9 pellet buckshot for most 12 ga applications.

My SX1, 28" barrel I know the forcing cone work, bore dia, POC of the Nu-Line external knurled chokes, and often use the one marked .735 yeah I know that standard 12 bore is supposed to be .729 , then again what something is marked - what is that really telling you?

One is "marked" .720. Art & Science - see these constrictions mean nothing without knowing the bore diameter.

Correia - knows more about the Saiga.

It would be great if Correia has a Stan Baker Bore measuring tool [hint hint] and measured and compared these Saiga's and some other shotguns he sells www.fbmginc.com

My gut says...the step in the Saiga forcing cone is too sharp, and if tweaked, the Fed slugs would shoot more POA/POI

My gut also says the Peters plain vanilla slug, weighing 7/8 oz instead of 1oz may shoot more POA/POI.

That Peters slug is a great load - I like it!

 

[Correia]

sm, I've never measured that before. Beats me.

Honestly, I've never seen that before. Mine shoots slugs just fine. I usually run S&B 12 pellet 00 for buck, and Remington reduced recoil slugs, and they both shoot about where I'm aiming. I've not had anybody bring back a 12 that shoots slugs that far off to one side, not saying it isn't possible, but I've not seen it myself.

Even my 8" barreled Ewok gun (thanks for the name Steve, it has stuck) shoots slugs fine.

 

[sm]

Larry-

Ewok Gun You are welcome - I think.
If you want names for anything else - you know where to find me...

Seriously though, I spent quite a bit of time on all this stuff once upon a time. I just found it interesting, and educational. Today "gimmee and gun and some ammo" for a lot of what I want to do , and fun tasks. I "walk in" .410 slugs to hit coffee cans for instance.

Stan Baker measuring tools are not inexpenisive, still if you found a deal on a used one, it might come in handy for some of the Shotguns and Applications your customers use shotguns for.

I used to have the time and resources to mess with making my own slugs. Little variations on powder, and wads make a difference - just like any reloading for shotgun shell and patterns, or metallic loading for performance.

Currently, I have some folks doing the simple "ball" slugs like Ballistic Products sells kits for.

Yes these work, and yes even the 28 ga slugs will penetrate windshields and car doors.

I have reasons for all the interest in making simple slugs, even just the ball variety, one is simply if supplies of ammo were broken, the ability to make a slug is a nice thing to be able to do.

Buffer in buckshot helps - even Malto Meal, Farina, Grits 'buffer'. I improved the patterns of S&B by simply undoing the crimp, adding buffer, and re-crimping.

I also removed pellets from these S&Bs and replaced with nickle plated 00 buck. Even tighter - 35 steps and all inside a 5" disc, 12 POC on that barrel.

I have gotten all 9 pellets of 00 buck onto a playing card at 25 steps - just piddling and being curious. Same barrel put 5 slugs cloverleaf at 50 steps, onto a playing card.

Bone Stock, 870 plain barrel, fixed choke marked "mod".

Tip: Never cut down a old plain 870 barrel, no matter what guage, no matter how long. These barrels were "made right". I get upset when these get whacked, the whole Art & Science has been destroyed. Only way to get it back - and we have had to due to someone bursting one upon firing with mud in the muzzle - is to have a qualified gunsmith install screw in chokes, and then re-do the forcing cone. Costs a bit of time and money - but a busted barrel was bought for $25, $35 or sometime free - folks do not understand, and we can be real dumb at times as to why we wanted a busted barrel.

Just something to do and learn from.

 

[enfield]

Not sure if this is pertinent, but:

When I dropped my Ithaca M37 and bent the tube, I had my gunsmith progressively bend it back while I took it to the range and fired 12 ga slugs prone (painful!!) between bends. When we got the windage correct (about 4 iterations) we stopped. It shot just fine with bird shot (not buck) before the accident and after the barrel was re-bent. The last time I hunted pheasants it was just deadly.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Thanks for all the info!

I'll definitely experiment with a wider variety of slugs, for starters, and if I don't find a solution with those, I'll try some choke tubes. I never really realized how far apart shot spreads, and tightening up the pattern appeals to me, anyhow.

I was shooting the shotgun from a bench (banged up my shoulder even through two recoil pads!) at paper targets, then later switched to reactive ones which I hit consistantly by aiming several degrees to the left (based off of the iron sights). I figured it had something to do with the slugs being rifled and maybe "spinning" out at an angle due to some bore terrain feature or the size of the slug vs my bore and open choke size. It was pretty consistant, all told, just at a point of aim I didn't like.