Slugs Only: Stupid?

[Panzerschwein]

I see. Considering Brennekes use an attached wad, there is less risk of the wad forming a seperate projectile to endanger innocents. A flying wad can be lethal at close ranges and is very dangerous quite a ways out. I was hoping to avoid that.

 

[Chuck R.]

Between the shotgun and AR, for use outside the home, suburban and in the desert, then I'd much rather have an AR.

Pretty much for the litany of reasons Zoogster gave. The majority of PDs operate in a similar environment as you describe and they've gone to ARs for the same reasons. Last carbine class I took (MAR this year) was predominately LEOs, with both their issue and personal patrol guns (AR15s). Nowadays it's easy to find a carbine class, not so easy to find a defensive shotgun class. I have a Benelli M1S90 with ghost ring sights, with rifled slugs it is at best a 3-4" gun at 100 yards off a bench. I'd be hard pressed to find an AR that shoots that poorly. Add to it, recoil, slow to reload. etc. etc.

So, between the OPs 2 choices, AR for me.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Well 3-4" seems accurate enough for any justifiable defensive situation to me. But I agree on your other points. Perhaps I should just get an AR, seems a shotgun loaded with slugs really pans out to be a sorry excuse for a carbine. Will still probably use it for the home, though. Makes sense LEOs have replaced the shotgun with the AR.

Thanks for the input gang. This was just to stir the pot and get your ideas. It's probably time to invest in an AR, a Colt 6720 looks good...

 

[Gordon]

Yes Louis Awerbuck favored slugs for HD SG uses, yes he favored the regular powered 2 3/4 Brennekes . For you to take a hostage shot the slug is way better, For leathality a slug is A QUICKER PUT DOWN TO A HUMAN than a load of buck over 15 yards in use like the NYPD Stake out Squads did. I prefer these
http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/

 

[Jason_W]

I believe there are a few brands of frangible shotgun slug available. I think Winchester makes one that is designed to fragment into 3 pieces upon impact.

It’s true that some slugs will penetrate far more stuff than a rifle round, but most foster slugs are made of a very soft allow that flattens into a a sort of lead donut when it hits something. A slug may penetrate a whole house, but I don’t see it going far afterwards.

Over penetration is often dwelled upon, but what about shots that miss completely? A rifle bullet that misses clean is bound to go a lot farther than slug or pellet of buckshot that misses.

 

[roo_ster]

Nothing wrong with a shotgun + slugs, especially if you are familiar with the platform. I would stoke my HD with slugs, but I am in the city, so 000 or 00 buck it is.

In my truck shotgun, I loaded with with buck, but had slugs on hand.

Slug-wise, for anti-personnel, I favor foster slugs. For critters, brennekes. Up to 15 yards, buck is king for terminal effects. Past 15 yards, slugs rule. 5.56mm, while effective in it own way, is sucking hind teat until 100 yards when its high velocity, low mass projectile allows for easier hits and rifle-round damage.

One thing the AR guys don't get is the quick handling and pointability of shotguns, even stoked with slugs, and especially vs moving targets. No AR made is as good vs moving targets. A light is nice, but no night sights or red dots needed, thanks. Heck, my primary fowling piece had the bead fall out and I bust clays just as well as when I had the bead.

That said, out in the desert, where ranges are long, an AR15+Leupold 2-7x scope might be my choice. I have plenty of time behind AR15s, too.

 

[C0untZer0]

If you look at the Winchester 12ga Super-X slug, it only penetrates to around 14.50" and expands to 1.24" in ballistic gel - which should dispel the myth that ALL slugs completely pass through an assailant and keep going to wreak havoc downrange. Some slugs go clear through but some slugs don't...



When a .45 ACP round penetrates to 15" and expands to around .78", people generally say that's a great performing projectile, so a shotgun slug that penetrates about the same distance but has over 1½ times the expansion must also be a great performing projectile.

 

[tactikel]

Since you are familiar with shotguns stick with them. Try 2-3 different types of slugs to find which performs best. Consider buckshot #4 thru OO, very effective at SD range.
There is vertualy no situation in which you can justify a SD shooting at ranges beyond 10-15 yards. If you are in a " without the rule of law" situation use slugs or better yet get an AR.

 

[WessonOil]

You can shop around online, but for not a whole lot of money you can add a tube extension to the 590.

You're already planning on carrying it in the truck so it's not a big deal if it's a big longer than your barrel.

I'd opt for a shotshell of some size and will let others guide you on that.

Shotshells are wonderful as you can shoot as fast as you'd like and rarely miss.

For instance, I shoot 10 steel targets in 3 Gun on a regular basis with 7 /12 shot and virtually never miss 6" targets and larger at 30 feet or do...as fast as I can pump the 870.

Not sure what the laws are where you live, but do bear in mind the length of time it may take you to initially load the tube.

 

[Kendal Black]

Yes Louis Awerbuck favored slugs for HD SG uses, yes he favored the regular powered 2 3/4 Brennekes . For you to take a hostage shot the slug is way better, For leathality a slug is A QUICKER PUT DOWN TO A HUMAN than a load of buck over 15 yards in use like the NYPD Stake out Squads did. I prefer these
http://www.brennekeusa.com/law-enforcement-ammunition/thdr-tactical-home-defense/

As I recall, Awerbuck's choice to load Brennekes no matter the situation came down to simplifying his mental workload. No matter the distance, and whichever shotgun he was using, his pattern size, so to speak, remained the same, around three-quarter inch at any distance.

The following are walls of text but searching them for "slug" turns up the relevant claims he made.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-55983.html

Ammo selection. His opinion based on his abilities was that he only ran slugs. Why?. I quote "I got the brain the size of a pea". He stress that based on his limitation and abilities he run slugs so he does not have to think about ammo in a gunfight. The basic idea in ammo selection is know what and how your guns pattern at various distances and figure out at what distance you are most likely to use your shotgun. He talked at length about slug types and how if you use a sabot you might have difficult time explaining why your sabot took off at 90 degrees and hit an innocent bystander. His slug choice was a Original Brenneke. It has a felt wadding screwed into the base of the slug. So whatever leaves the barrel is the slug. There was talk about the ballistics of the regular shot and slug and not about the low recoil 'tactical' stuff we were shooting.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/review-of-louis-awerbuck-shotgun-course-long.103612/

When asked what Louis personally used, he informed us that he doesn't use buckshot as he owns too many shotguns, and uses slugs only.

I do not think his reasoning was bad by any means, but it is good only so far as it goes. Buckshot gives better hit probability in less than ideal circumstances, such as targets in motion, targets fleetingly exposed, poor lighting, or the need to engage a target at maximum speed.

 

[Gordon]

Louis , Like Jim Cirullo were very concerned with hostage shots and responsibility for every projectile discharged, which is very difficult for buckshot ! I used Remington duty grade "Managed Recoil" slugs in the 870s I trained with under them, and as Scott Reitz put it "they are not manly loads but will do the job " I could fire them very rapidly and smoothly and they are very soft . One ounce at 1200 FPS has to hurt and penetrate adequately and they are 3/4" going in

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I have a bunch of thoughts here. Let’s see how much I get yelled at for being unconventional.

• An AR is easier to learn than a shotgun. Recoil management isn’t a thing. Reloads are simpler. Ammo management is simpler. Ammo choice is simpler. Overall it’s just simpler.
• A well set up AR is a do everything weapon from 10’ to 400 yards or so.
• Buckshot against unarmored opponents may just be the most effective option with decent shot placement but this is debatable. It seems to me a load of buckshot in the vitals with a fist sized grouping would be devastating on most any target you are likely to face.
• You are responsible for every round that leaves the barrel. This means you need to know how your gun patterns with your load at every range. It may mean that 00 buck isn’t really usable beyond 15 yards or so. Or, if you are lucky or spend money to tune up your barrel you may find that the flitecontrol rounds stay in a 12-16” circle at 40-50 yards. Test it.
• A good one ounce slug is no slouch. If you can find one that groups 3” at 100 yards then you have a weapon that’s good for most any defensive situation. It is hard to imagine a situation covered by self defense laws that justifies shots beyond 100 yards to me.
• Loading buckshot and having a sideshell carrier loaded with slugs is a solid solution if you download the tube and leave the chamber empty, or you train for quickly loading a slug.
• Think about use of your firearm by someone who steals it out of your truck. I replaced my AR after thinking this throug, and now I have a bolt action as a truck gun. I don’t see someone choosing to mug someone with a bolt action .308 by choice. I frequently consider swapping it with a pump shotgun though. It’s a coin flip.

If you can run a shotgun well and are comfortable with it I see no problem with a slug-loaded pump. I’d probably mix buckshot and slugs but that’s just me.

But if I were recommending something to someone who won’t invest in regular training? It’s hard to beat the AR platform. It’s good enough for most use cases. The pump 12ga is better in some roles and worse in others and it requires thinking and familiarity. Issues that are a big hurdle to folks not part of the gun culture.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Extremely awesome, gang. Much good information received and digested. Thank you for not cutting me a new one on this.

Think I'll stick with what I know. I'll use original Brennekes with the felt wad attached. The flying wadding being a hazard to others makes a lot of sense, and I hear nothing but good reports on their accuracy.

 

[brewer12345]

Hmmm, I am scratching my head a bit on this one. OP, what is it you think you might be shooting at? Two legged predators? Hogs? Jacks? Beer cans? Out in the desert I think you can pick whatever you like and go with it. In populated areas it begins to matter because of the possibility of collateral damage. But I still have no idea if you expect to possibly be shooting rabbits or grizzlies.

 

[fjblair]

I don't think there are any realistic "self defense" applications for 100m slug guns, but a shotgun loaded with some scatter blasters is a great option for self defense.