Small Base Dies or the "usual"

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Then if you want to push the shoulder back less you use a competition shellholder or shims on the face of the shellholder but you still cam over at the top of the stroke.
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True, very true, IF the press is a cam over press. I have jam over, cram over and or lock up presses, none of them cam over, I have at least 3 Rock Chucker press, none of them cam over, they all jam up, cram up or lock up.

My rock Chucker press have a kick out, instead of cramming over the ram is kicked out because of the jam, cram or lock up.

Herter presses, that is different, all of my Herter presses cam over. After 'they cam over' they lock up.

F. Guffey
 
Thanks Mstreddy.

Can anyone answer this one? Again, hopefully not to off topic.

Do you want to be flush-high in the gauge, since that works the brass less? Im loading 223 for an AR15. (Or if their is a goal here, which is it? Low, middle, or high? Or is this an "it depends")?
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Potatohead said:
Thanks Mstreddy.

Can anyone answer this one? Again, hopefully not to off topic.
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If you are talking about the LE Wilson gauge, you want it to be just proud of the lower cut in the gauge, but lower than the top one. I get a few that are just flush to ever, ever so slightly (and I mean ever so slightly) under the lower one, and they still worked. Being proud of the top one is a no no, but make sure both the gauge and the case are clean. I've popped a few in that stood proud, but once all is clean, they go in. If not, I try the small base resizer. Sometimes this does it, if in doubt it goes in the scrap bag. Is this what you mean?

Russellc
 
plmitch said:
I have a used set of lee .223 dies I paid $5.00 for. Several thousand loads of range trash brass on them and they have feed several different rifles. Small base are not needed.
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Not for you and your gun maybe. I have had for the most part, the same results that you speak of. I have seen several note that with their guns, a small base full length die was needed for things to function properly in their ARs. I dont think there are any absolutes here, but for the most part I am in total agreement with you. Others, with other guns, well YMMV. Likely all depends on the brass you have, and the chamber you have and that can vary...

Russellc
 
Potatohead, place fired brass from your gun in the wilson gage. Size so its the same or a tiny bit lower. Federal American Eagle Ammunition 5.56x45mm NATO 55 Grain XM193 Full Metal Jacket Boat Tail is the hottest i have shot. It will fully expand to the chamber to get a good gage reading. (ammo not to be fired in a 223 rem chamber)
 
Thanks fellas. Just wondering if their was a particular area you want the brass to be in between the lower and upper step. If lower or higher was more desirable.

PM outbound to avoid further hijacking.
 
Remember, most of the common case gauges such as Wilson and Dillon do not measure the body of the case.

They measure case length and shoulder position. The dimension of the body area is generously cut. This is the area that small base dies size.

Fired cases from my rifles will fit my case gauge before sizing! So, the commonly availble case gauges will not tell you if you have a body sizing issue.

There are chamber gauges available or they can be custom made by a gunsmith. You just do not see them often.
 
fguffey said:
True, very true, IF the press is a cam over press. I have jam over, cram over and or lock up presses, none of them cam over, I have at least 3 Rock Chucker press, none of them cam over, they all jam up, cram up or lock up.



My rock Chucker press have a kick out, instead of cramming over the ram is kicked out because of the jam, cram or lock up.



Herter presses, that is different, all of my Herter presses cam over. After 'they cam over' they lock up.



F. Guffey
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Old rock chucked presses are different I believe.

My 12yo RC cams over just fine as will most modern presses
 
Since you're using the second set of dies in autoloaders, buy the Small Base dies. They don't cost anymore than regular dies. Buy them and be done with it.
 
Yes, he started with S/B dies and his question to us on the forum was:

"I am going to buy another set of .223 dies to be used at another location and I was wondering:
Is there any advantage or disadvantage to using either the small base dies or the non-small base .223 dies?"

My recommendation to the O/P is to buy another set of S/B dies for the "other location". It's better to have them than not to have them and find out you need them. There Is NO DOWNSIDE to using S/B dies over a set of standard dies reloading for a battle rifle. As long as you set your F/L die up properly to bump the case shoulders back .003"-.005" your good. The S/B die will just size the case body a little smaller. A S/B die is NOT going to wear your brass out any faster than a regular F/L die.

To determine shoulder bump, you'll need a gauge to measure this. I like the Hornady headspace gauge set. It's reliable and for money spent, it's the most practical since you can measure shoulder bump on nearly any SAAMI cartridge with the set.

I reload for about 6 -.223 / 5.56 AR Rifles. My first set of RCBS .223 Dies are dated "1972" (when I first started loading for a Colt SP-1). I bought a set of RCBS Small Base dies in "1974" and have been using them ever since. When my brass wears out, it's usually the primer pocket that stretches out before I get case failures, splits etc.
 
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how many out there have ever had a problem with 223 brass in a 5.56 or a 223 chamber using Std, dies and found the need for small base dies ? I know this is common in AR10's and other autoloaders in 308win and 243's , I had to make a die for my AR15 in 25WSSM but here on THR some have been loading 223 for 30+ years using Std dies , and everyone I know loading 223 are using either Lee or RCBS Std dies with out an issue .

so to the OP. you have small base dies already , try the Std dies and see if it makes better ammo , the better the case fits the chamber the longer it will last and should be more accurate
 
My AR ammo may be used at some point for social applications. I use SB sizing dies, as the number one requirement for social ammo is: "It absolutely has to run in ANY rifle they might be used in." As for adjusting for "Cam Over", I load on a progressive, and avoid die contact will the shell plate to avoid tipping. As was mentioned earlier, excessive shoulder set back is an undesirable result for this method as well.
str1
 
Old rock chucked presses are different I believe.

My 12yo RC cams over just fine as will most modern presses
__________________
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I do not have a Rock Chucker that is newer than 12 years old, all of my Rock Chuckers are over 12 years old. If I had a Rock Chucker that cammed over I could tell you how much, as in thousandths. I have modified Rock Chuckers to cam over.

When measuring cam over I use a feeler gage and or a dial indicator. That is not as complicated as setting the timing on an engine with degree wheels, valve timing and injectors. I know that does not seem complicated but on some engines it is necessary to remove the cam shaft to change timing, just to install an off set key to advance or retard the cam gear.

F. Guffey
 
I have read this over back and forth so I will add the following. Do you need a small base die? If you do you will probably already know it and be asking why your ammo wont feed properly.

I got my first small base die for my M1A Super Match. Reloads with a normal die just did not let the bolt completely closed so I would glance down through the sights on every shot and make sure it was truly locked. If not I would reach up and whop the op-rod and close it. This is stupid and dangerous so I got a small base die. Problem solved.

The second small base die was an U-die from Lee for my 38 Super. With varied brass thicknesses, I would occasionally (remington) get cases that would let the bullet setback during chambering. Bummer. U-die solved the problem and necked those guys in tight.

So buy a normal set of dies and learn to use them. If you have problems then consider the small base dies.
 
I have a small base die I bought 25 years ago...somewhere. None of my guns seem to need it. I bought a regular set of dies when I bought a bolt gun and just kept using it for my AR.

I'm not sure there's all that much difference between my RCBS small base die and my Lee regular one.
 
Peter M. Eick said:
I have read this over back and forth so I will add the following. Do you need a small base die? If you do you will probably already know it and be asking why your ammo wont feed properly.

I got my first small base die for my M1A Super Match. Reloads with a normal die just did not let the bolt completely closed so I would glance down through the sights on every shot and make sure it was truly locked. If not I would reach up and whop the op-rod and close it. This is stupid and dangerous so I got a small base die. Problem solved.

The second small base die was an U-die from Lee for my 38 Super. With varied brass thicknesses, I would occasionally (remington) get cases that would let the bullet setback during chambering. Bummer. U-die solved the problem and necked those guys in tight.

So buy a normal set of dies and learn to use them. If you have problems then consider the small base dies.
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Somewhere on this forum is a thread with a guy having this problem with his AR, I was just starting to load .223 and it was the reason I bought my Redding small base die. So far, my Lee full length die is fine....

Russellc
 
Never needed small base dies for my AR because my Lee set of dies works great for my single shots, pump, bolt, and semi auto action style 223. So never felt the need to explore new dies, but i did read somewhere that the small base dies do work the brass harder so you will get less reloads out of the brass
 
cfullgraf said:
Remember, most of the common case gauges such as Wilson and Dillon do not measure the body of the case.

They measure case length and shoulder position. The dimension of the body area is generously cut. This is the area that small base dies size.

Fired cases from my rifles will fit my case gauge before sizing! So, the commonly availble case gauges will not tell you if you have a body sizing issue.

There are chamber gauges available or they can be custom made by a gunsmith. You just do not see them often.
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Then why does a swelled case stick in it? This is not what Wilson says. Do you know this for fact, or just what you heard on the net? I have heard others comment that they only measure length...not so most def! Please elaborate. I think this mis info comes from the instructions that come with the gauge: "This is a one-piece non adjustable cylinder type gage (their misspell) for checking FIRED and RESIZED cartridge cases for cone-to-head and over all length. These gages (their mis spell again) are not made with chambering reamers but with special reamers giving extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder as to eliminate any possibility of contact except at the gaging point". This is followed by instructions to "SET CASES TO SAMMI specifications." and "Setting up full length resizing based off fired cases LE Wilson preferred method": " This procedure is advised because of a tendency we have noted in the last twenty years of firearms manufacturers to use larger chamber reamers and to chamber more deeply even for rimless cartridges."

Lord knows I am wrong all the time, and if so here, someone who knows for sure, not just internet conjecture, please school me. I am contacting LE Wilson with this same question and will advise as to their position on an answer. I took it to mean that you would be correct as far as, as put by Wilson "extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder" does not say the entire length of the gauge. I thought this was the reason that a "sized", but still too large a case would stick. I am all ears and open to correction however...

Sounds like you know of what you speak and in the event this is so, please PM me as to where I can obtain one that measures all the case, thanks.

Russellc
 
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Military rifles are known for having generous chambers. But a non-military rifle may have a normal one. You don't need small base dies unless your chamber is tight and you have feeding problems.
 
RussellC said:
Then why does a swelled case stick in it? This is not what Wilson says. Do you know this for fact, or just what you heard on the net? I have heard others comment that they only measure length...not so most def! Please elaborate. I think this mis info comes from the instructions that come with the gauge: "This is a one-piece non adjustable cylinder type gage (their misspell) for checking FIRED and RESIZED cartridge cases for cone-to-head and over all length. These gages (their mis spell again) are not made with chambering reamers but with special reamers giving extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder as to eliminate any possibility of contact except at the gaging point". This is followed by instructions to "SET CASES TO SAMMI specifications." and "Setting up full length resizing based off fired cases LE Wilson preferred method": " This procedure is advised because of a tendency we have noted in the last twenty years of firearms manufacturers to use larger chamber reamers and to chamber more deeply even for rimless cartridges."

Lord knows I am wrong all the time, and if so here, someone who knows for sure, not just internet conjecture, please school me. I am contacting LE Wilson with this same question and will advise as to their position on an answer. I took it to mean that you would be correct as far as, as put by Wilson "extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder" does not say the entire length of the gauge. I thought this was the reason that a "sized", but still too large a case would stick. I am all ears and open to correction however...

Sounds like you know of what you speak and in the event this is so, please PM me as to where I can obtain one that measures all the case, thanks.

Russellc
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See this web page from L.E.Wilson's site.

http://www.lewilson.com/casegage.html

It clearly states that it does not measure the body dimensions.

I believe Dillon says something similar but I have slept since I looked it up.

It is possible that a chamber could be so large that a fired case will not fit one of the gauges. They may be cut generously, but that does not necessarily mean alot.

I believe JP Enterprises sells chamber gauges for 223 Remington and maybe 308 Winchester. I am sure there are others. These gauges would be a better indication that your body diameters are closer to correct.

Many match shooters will have the gunsmith make a chamber gauge with the same reamer used to chamber the match rifle. Then they have something that is about as close as it is going to get for checking their match ammunition.

Case gauges are useful tools and I use them on occasions. They are not the panacea some folks make them out to be.

Hope this helps.
 
I have a set of Dillon case gauges (223 and 308) and a set of (223 and 308) of the JP Enterprise case gauges. The JP gauges are cut with a chamber reamer and are tighter than the Dillon gauges.

Most of the time, my JP gauges will not let a fired case into the gauge just from the expansion of the neck. JP gauges measure neck and body dimensions. A fired case will drop in a Dillon gauge where the JP gauge will not let the same fired case drop in.
 
As I can't think of a valid reason not to use the SB dies for auto loading rifles. The only way to be sure you recover your own brass is if you're the only one on the range shooting from a static position. The brass I pick up may be mine, or that of any of the other 50 shooters in the match. I don't worry about brass failure, I use it until it fails or I lose it. I usually lose it long before it fails. Accuracy certainly hasn't suffered in my rifles. As I mentioned before it's cheap insurance that the ammo will run in any in chamber. I use the U die for loading 9mm as well, for the same reasons.
str1
 
Thanks, I stand corrected. I will check into these JP gauges.

Russellc
 
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