JFrank
Member
There can be plenty of information on min sample ladder tests. Statistics are nice but the target is King. A fella needs a steady/solid set up and test while using wind flags then trust what you see on paper.
Smallest powder incriment in ladder building.
- Thread starter conan32120
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mcb
Member
With very small charges in my 38 Short Colt and 38 S&W I record the charge to x.xx. my goal is roughly .05 increments but in reality I get close and given the precision of my scale that is the average of ten throws into the pan. Later when replicating the load I try to get with in +/-.02 grains on the 10 throw average. It's pretty tedious to do and I only do it on those charges that are 3.5 gr or lighter.
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conan32120
Member
Here is a ladder test, 45gr seems the best of course so my query would be how small a powder increment would yall use to close that up a bit? I don't hunt, I only chase the cloverleaf. Mind you I'm old and my shooting skills have diminished but I still keep hoping
AJC1
Member
What's the difference between 44.0 and 45.0. They look identical...
luv2safari
Member
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conan32120
Member
Seriously? 44gr is considerably larger to me
JFrank
Member
Don’t judge group size while performing a ladder test, similar point of impact is the key. What caliber are we looking at ?
AJC1
Member
Both have two touching and one away. Is that a flier or the operator. Are we dealing with neck tension irregularities, or showing double grouping at both charge weights. Three shot groups are for hunters, paper killers shoot 5 and verify with 10 or more. There has to be enough data to make even half decent analysis. We're the groups shot round Robin to equalize barrel heat and shooter fatigue? To the point of your original question, I'd load 5 round steps in .2 increments and go from 44 to 45. Crono the entire set looking for good SD and es nodes so you can pick a charge for a seating depth test... I also like to run the same test on 2 diffrent trips and compare results...
I'm not skilled at "reading groups," so I'd be interested to see what @JFrank or some of the other precision guys think when they look at that target.
When I look at that target, I see 4 3-shot groups that are materially the same. (I'm assuming the top left and top center aren't part of this since I don't see a charge weight label). Yes, 45.0 is smallest, but I wouldn't expect it to necessarily repeat being the smallest if you shot the ladder again. Your average POI does appear to be shifting from right to left as you go up in powder charge, but with only three shots per rung I can't say that's anything other than coincidence the way those groups are behaving at 100 yards. Based on my experience with factory rifles (assumption on my part), I wouldn't consider any of those shots to be a flier (unless you for-sure called one at the shot before seeing the paper). Personally, I wouldn't expect to "close it up" much by tweaking the powder charge in smaller increments. But hey, I've been wrong before, and often testing is more than half the fun.
@AJC1's suggestion is a good one. Alternatively, you could center your ladder on 45.0 grains and do an equal number of rungs below and above. .2 grains is a pretty fine adjustment (1/2 of one percent). I wouldn't go any smaller, but since you're trying to zero in on a powder charge I think it's fine. Or, you could shoot the exact same ladder again and see if it repeated.
Or another alternative---and this is just a hair-brained suggestion---is to load up 10 rounds at 45.0 grains and go shoot them all over a chronograph at the same point of aim. Let your barrel cool between every 2-3 shots if you want. But I think doing that will give you a better idea of what that powder-bullet are actually capable of, and what your dispersion pattern looks like, than shooting 3-round groups in small increments at 100 yards. If it's not accurate enough for your needs, try a different bullet or powder.
When I look at that target, I see 4 3-shot groups that are materially the same. (I'm assuming the top left and top center aren't part of this since I don't see a charge weight label). Yes, 45.0 is smallest, but I wouldn't expect it to necessarily repeat being the smallest if you shot the ladder again. Your average POI does appear to be shifting from right to left as you go up in powder charge, but with only three shots per rung I can't say that's anything other than coincidence the way those groups are behaving at 100 yards. Based on my experience with factory rifles (assumption on my part), I wouldn't consider any of those shots to be a flier (unless you for-sure called one at the shot before seeing the paper). Personally, I wouldn't expect to "close it up" much by tweaking the powder charge in smaller increments. But hey, I've been wrong before, and often testing is more than half the fun.
@AJC1's suggestion is a good one. Alternatively, you could center your ladder on 45.0 grains and do an equal number of rungs below and above. .2 grains is a pretty fine adjustment (1/2 of one percent). I wouldn't go any smaller, but since you're trying to zero in on a powder charge I think it's fine. Or, you could shoot the exact same ladder again and see if it repeated.
Or another alternative---and this is just a hair-brained suggestion---is to load up 10 rounds at 45.0 grains and go shoot them all over a chronograph at the same point of aim. Let your barrel cool between every 2-3 shots if you want. But I think doing that will give you a better idea of what that powder-bullet are actually capable of, and what your dispersion pattern looks like, than shooting 3-round groups in small increments at 100 yards. If it's not accurate enough for your needs, try a different bullet or powder.
JFrank
Member
@Okie_Poke
The objective of ammunition is to hit what you’re aiming at, therefore repeatable point of impact is the first priority. We see that somewhat between 44.5 and 45.5 however this isn’t a very happy load . That’s why I asked for more information, what caliber, what powder , shooting off hand or with a solid rest ? More info please
The objective of ammunition is to hit what you’re aiming at, therefore repeatable point of impact is the first priority. We see that somewhat between 44.5 and 45.5 however this isn’t a very happy load . That’s why I asked for more information, what caliber, what powder , shooting off hand or with a solid rest ? More info please
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conan32120
Member
.243 with WW760. I usually run three round rungs to keep shot count down and hopefully preserve my barrel for a few years. I do use a rest and a bag but as I said earlier my skills have diminished considerably as I get older. A chrony is not available. What I see is somewhere around 45 gr is a good node. So I guess what I was asking would you hunt a better load between 44.5 and 45.5 at .2 grain steps or .1gr? As a curiosity mostly I guess. Can a precision shooter see a .1 grain difference in impact?
lordpaxman
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My understanding of the OCW method is you choose a charge weight where the vertical deviation is a minimum. The thought being it’s not that sensitive to slight deviations in charge weight. In my .243 test a .1 or .2gr either way won’t change much. I did use a chrono and observed a V flat spot as well but the method doesn’t require it.
Others have commented that 100 yd is a standard, but 200 or better yet 300 tells a lot more. It also depends on what your intended load is for. If you’re set for 100 yards, I’d load a set of 45.0 and see what 5 or 10 rounds do on a different day.
Others have commented that 100 yd is a standard, but 200 or better yet 300 tells a lot more. It also depends on what your intended load is for. If you’re set for 100 yards, I’d load a set of 45.0 and see what 5 or 10 rounds do on a different day.
With very few exceptions, all of my rifle loads are developed at 200 yards. My goal is to have groups at or less than 1" at that yardage. Most of my rifle loads are considerably better than that standard. Short range rifles, like my 450 Marlin, are developed at 100 yards.
JFrank
Member
Well personally I don’t think that W 760 is a good powder choice for a 243, also starting at 44 gr does not show the load coming into tune and where it goes out. Rather more of a scatter mode so the powder charge could be way off.
Anyway the mid range loads posted ( 44.5-45.5 ) impact approx at 7:00 although a bit rough they do impact that location. What’s the problem ?
1- could be wrong powder ?
2- poor gun handling/ trying to drive the rifle with a heavy grip ?
3- improper or unsteady rest ?
Using a steady rest and rear bag a guy should only have to point the rifle in the direction of the target.
Review the powder first.
www.nosler.com
Anyway the mid range loads posted ( 44.5-45.5 ) impact approx at 7:00 although a bit rough they do impact that location. What’s the problem ?
1- could be wrong powder ?
2- poor gun handling/ trying to drive the rifle with a heavy grip ?
3- improper or unsteady rest ?
Using a steady rest and rear bag a guy should only have to point the rifle in the direction of the target.
Review the powder first.
243 Winchester Load Data
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Pistol I go .1 as it generally has a very small load range. Larger pistol cases with bigger load ranges, .2 would probably be fine.
Rifle depends on level of accuracy Im looking for, but generally .2 or .3, but have gone .5 for bigger cases to get some rough ideas.
JFrank
Member
@conan32120
Doing a bit more research I find some guys running w760 but at a much higher charge rate ( back to my earlier comment of a scatter mode) so if your hung on this powder, I’ll ask if you’ve reached any pressure signs ? If not you may continue to load to the next node while watching for pressure signs.
And 67 is not old, I’m in my 70’s and compete against the young crowd at 1000 yards.
Doing a bit more research I find some guys running w760 but at a much higher charge rate ( back to my earlier comment of a scatter mode) so if your hung on this powder, I’ll ask if you’ve reached any pressure signs ? If not you may continue to load to the next node while watching for pressure signs.
And 67 is not old, I’m in my 70’s and compete against the young crowd at 1000 yards.
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