"Smart gun" development (and boycott) question

[chaim]

OK, this is essentially a follow up question related to the thread about Taurus developing a "smart gun". With the laws in MD and NJ, once a smart gun becomes reality (possibly before then, by the wording of the MD law it looks as though only the technology has to be workable) those become the only legal guns for sale in those states (I don't even think non-smart gun used guns will be legal). Thus, development of this technology triggers a wholesale gun ban in at least two states in the US. As a result, many are talking boycott of Taurus if they persist in their plans to develop a smart gun.

However, it does no good to boycott one gun maker working on "smart guns" but not the others (albeit one who, based on their past history of technological development is likely to actually get it done).

So who else is working on them? I know that Colt was, are they still? Is S&W? Ruger? Anyone else?

Lets send a message to the gun makers that we don't want anyone working on these things as long as there are laws that this would trigger leading to large scale gun bans. Remember, even if your state isn't effected, it still could be. Many states (at least the more liberal ones) that don't have this law are probably just waiting for a workable gun before they legislate this. I'd be extremely surprised if NY and CA (and probably OH and a few others) didn't institute such laws once a gun was available.

Note: Taurus does have a good history of support of the RKBA, so for now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they weren't considering these things when they entered the project. I'm giving them about a month to respond to the growing internet buzz to see where they really stand. If they drop the project, all is forgiven. If they come up with excuses and keep the project, or worse, if they don't even address/comment on our concerns- no more new Taurus handguns for me, and Taurus Talk is either being turned over to my co-manager or shut down.

 

[chaim]

Oh, does anyone want to work with me to start a "Boycott Taurus" MSN Community? I need copies of the MD and NJ laws, essays on the legal ramifications of Taurus working on "smart guns" (BTW- on Guntalk Bob Morrison said that he expects the prototype to be ready within a year), essays on the dangers of the technology (any experts on biotech and electronics/computers as they relate to the "smart gun" technology would be really welcome), and someone with time to co-manage the forum section (essentially be a moderator) would also be helpful. We need to do all we can to convince Taurus to reverse their decision and to convince anyone else considering this that it would be a bad idea. If Taurus goes through with it and triggers a gun ban they must be punished. Any help that can be given would be very welcome.

 

[Preacherman]

Chaim, I'm afraid you're flogging a dead horse. Taurus is simply getting in on a deal that already exists: between the DoD and Metal Storm (the DoD having invested hundreds of millions of dollars to make the technology work), and between Metal Storm and the NJIT, to make Metal Storm's technology "portable" to handgun-sized weapons. Apart from Taurus, Colt, S&W and Ruger are all working on "smart gun" projects. (These all involve government funding, IIRC - so there's political pressure too.) Overseas, the same can be said of H&K and most other major European manufacturers.

You're facing an irresistible political push for such weapons, and our boycotting companies isn't going to change that. In fact, we'd end up helping the anti's - they'd be delighted to see some successful gun manufacturers close their doors because of a backlash from gun owners.

 

[chaim]

Preacherman, I was kind of afraid of that. I figured most of what you hear is from non-firarms companies that may not have the know how or capital to bring a product to market. However, I was afraid that many companies may have started this and somehow slipped under the radar. This is one of those things that has been kind of an open secret. We all knew about it, we sometimes complain about it, but few of us seem to actually know where things actually stand.

Somehow we never got organized around this like most did around the Clinton-S&W agreement. Too bad too since in many ways "smart gun" technology due to the laws in MD and NJ (and soon other states likely) will in some ways be much worse. At least under the "agreement" working guns would be available, locks can be left unlocked, but under this in some states only "smart guns" will be available soon and at least at first these will likely be far less reliable than most "regular" guns. Then there is the effect on the used gun market as well, you like classic guns or you're a collector, too bad.

Oh, Preacherman, I thought after I posted that this might fit better under legal, but I put it here since (at least for now) it is only a handgun issue. If you (or another mod) think(s) it should be moved I understand.

 

[B_Scott]

So what needs to be done to get the gun manufacturers' attention?
Should we all write emails, letters, what???
Why isn't the NRA or GOA on top of this?

 

[Highland Ranger]

No mention on the NRA site . . . .

Guess those free one year gun memberships Taurus gives with every gun pay off . . . . for enough money let NJ rot must be the philosophy . . . . need to reconsider my membership.

 

[Preacherman]

For all the negatives we know about and discuss here, I think there are also some real positive results we can expect from the development of "smart guns".

1. Hopefully, this will produce a 100% reliable weapon that can only be used by its owner and/or those he/she has "coded" into the weapon. This will help stop the deaths of police officers (and private citizens!) shot with their own weapons by BG's who took the weapon away from them.

2. It should also be a major benefit in terms of child safety for those who don't lock their guns away from children.

3. Once electronics get small enough (and tough enough) to function reliably in a firearm, we can expect all sorts of additional applications for the technology. How about a small head-up display (like those used on fighter planes) instead of a red-dot sight? It could compute range automatically via laser rangefinder, calculate wind drift automatically by means of appropriate sensors, allow for temperature and humidity, and position the dot in exactly the right place to allow a first-round hit. Me like... (Advanced models will also automatically dial your buddies after the shot breaks and play them a recording of "I got that sucker!")

 

[J Miller]

Well, I for one have no use for electronics in a handgun action. Period.
I hope it doesn't come to a ban of regular firearms.
But like the rest of this country, the gun industry is going headlong into destruction.

 

[George Hill]

Boycott Taurus?

Why?

Why pick on them, when all the other gun makers are working on Smart Gun programs of there own?
Picking on Taurus because they have the balls to talk about it? I've seen S&W and Colt prototypes. Those use buttons and rings... I've seen other gadgets... all useless.

Gimmie a break.

 

[Kestrel]

Preacherman,

Sorry, but I disagree. (no offense) The whole smart-gun ballywick starts gun ownership down an already slippery slope. It will be a lot easier for states and/or the fed govt to mandate only smart gun technology for firearms. This will be tremendous ammunition for them.

I don't want it. It's unnecessary. It will have a very negative effect on the gun industry. The negatives far outweigh any perceived benefits the antigunners will try to sell the public on.

Steve

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Why boycott a company, any company that is trying to make a better product? There is nothing conceptually wrong with a smart gun. There are all sorts of things wrong with real world applications of technology that does not work, but keep people from trying to develop better technology?

I know, some of these folks probably wanted to boycott cars made with rubber tires in the 20s, seatbelts in the 50s and 60s, antilock brakes in the 90s, etc.

Somewhere back in time, there was a caveman who argued, "Stick is good. Don't use rock. Rock is bad. You use rock and I beat you with stick. Stick is all technology you need." We went on to rocks, and then much much more. Now we have firearms that are nothing more than really super and controlled rock throwers.

The slippery slope argument is bunk. "Smart ammo" of various materials has does nothing to stop the used of traditional ammo (Aguila IQ, RBCD, EFMJ, PowerBall, Magsafe, etc.). You would not boycott Federal for the EFMJ, would you?

 

[repsychler]

If you want to boycott something, boycott Maryland and New Jersey, they are the ones passing the smart gun laws.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with gun makers developing smart gun technology. Some people will want it, and market forces will decide how successful the technology is. It is better to spend your time and energy fighting the lawmakers that are proposing or passing laws mandating smart guns.

 

[newman32]

1. Hopefully, this will produce a 100% reliable weapon that can only be used by its owner and/or those he/she has "coded" into the weapon. This will help stop the deaths of police officers (and private citizens!) shot with their own weapons by BG's who took the weapon away from them.

Interestingly enough, in NJ, the LEOs will be exempt from this. Why? Well they just don't think they can rely on this technology to work 100% especially when they need their guns to defend their lives. I guess the rest of us will just have to make do with our unproven technology to defend our somehow less-valuable lives.

 

[ksnecktieman]

AND, since we already have electronics in our firearms, maybe a GPS system, so cops can find the guns? AND, a radio frequency that the cops can use to disable it?

Sorry, my opinion says it is bad. Does anyone care for the new "Northstar" system on cars? If GM can unlock your car from a satelite, it stands to reason they can shut it off, if you are fleeing leo, or maybe even just speeding too much, or your payment is late. Technology is a two way street, some Good, some Bad, and some Ugly.

Pardon any typos, I only had enough tinfoil for a one layer hat, and it should have been double thickness. Just because I am paranoid does not mean that there is no one following me.

 

[WheelMan]

This too shall pass...

While I'm not looking forward to the teething stages of this development (which unfortunately is all most of us will probably ever live to see) I agree with preacherman, If this technology ever works as advertised we have an answer to a problem we'd all like to solve. The wrong people getting shot at.

I'm sure when the brown bess was in fashion there were people who claimed they'd never trust an enclosed cartridge (from a factory? how do I know if it's full of powder or sawdust?) or a repeater (What happens when they all go off. mechanisms don't have any place on a firearm).

There's no reason electronics can't be just as robust as mechanics. It's simply a matter of time.

The firearms world is very resistant to change, I'm not sure why, I'm certainly glad I don't have to carry a matchlock and I bet in 500 years those guys will be glad they don't have to carry my primitive heater.

 

[WheelMan]

ksnecktieman

I think you're thinking of OnStar, I'm not sure what connection they have to GM. Northstar is an Oldsmobile designed engine they put in Cadillacs.

 

[Highland Ranger]

BOYCOTT TAURUS!

Very easy to say why pick on Taurus when you live in Texas and Minnesota . . . . move to NJ and then say it when we're a year off from a gun case with ONE $2500 Taurus ray gun that may or may not work.

And man, if it can happen here it can happen where ever you are.

In spite of your short sightedness, I still hope you never see the type of restrictive legislation we have here, but I fear you will.

Here's a scenario: they get the smart gun "working" in NJ and Maryland and California . . . . the 9/11 sentiments continue to fade and some nut with a handgun shoots up a school in Waco with his Daddy's pistol - Smartgun legislation gets passed to "protect the children".

Do you really think it can't happen? Your CCW laws aren't that old are they? 1995 or 1996? Very easy for things to go the other way - no 100 year tradition there right?

United we stand Divided we fall . . . . So it happens first in NJ and Maryland and because it's only there, no one discourages Taurus from participating through a unified boycott i.e. YOU still buy their guns in Texas.

They make the smartgun and now that it exists . . . . get ready for it to be the only gun you can buy. Someday anywhere.

Improving products is one thing; forcing people to buy life saving equipment that is essentially a beta version is just criminal.

And for those saying it will save Police lives, the legislation specifically exempts law enforcement . . . . . you guys have to wake up; writing is on the wall.

BOYCOTT TAURUS!

 

[racenutz]

How about we boycott every firearms company...that'll teach'em:banghead:

 

[Highland Ranger]

Why would we boycott every company?

Has another company announced that they would have a prototype within a year?

How about we boycott Taurus and show the other companies that supporting this type of legislation isn't a good thing?

Or roll over . . . .your choice . . . at least for now, know what I mean?

 

[racenutz]

Why would we boycott every company?

Let’s see...

Can't be a NRA member
Can't but a Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Glock or a Taurus

You've just eliminated 4 of the largest gun manufactures in the world & by far the largest RKBA lobbying organization in the world.

What companies is it safe to buy a gun from anymore?

IMHO, if you want to fight this kind of legislation do it politically. Get as many people as you can & march of your state's capitol, call & mail your elected officials every day, etc... But if you boycott every company that has ever done anything more in the interest of their company than in the interest of the 2nd amendment soon you won't be buying guns from ANY company.

 

[Highland Ranger]

racenutz:

I don't agree with your characterization of my statements - My statements stand as stated, not paraphrased.

Bottom line, vote with your dollars now or enjoy your smartgun; where ever you are . . .

Shrugging your shoulders and saying, all manufacturers are doing it (and I repeat, what other manufacturer has promised a working prototype within a year?) so let it pass?

Well other countries are confiscating weapons so lets just get right to it and do it here in the US . . . same logic and it's flawed.

As far as getting involved politically, I have a job and young children. I contribute financially where I can, but I don't have the bandwidth to organize marches on Trenton; too busy living my life. As are most of us.

As far as the NRA goes, my take is that they leave states like Maryland, New Jersey and New York to their own devices. They certainly take our money, but I wonder how much of it makes it back to the state.

I'll try to find that out from the regional rep - how much do you want to bet some of my dollars get spent in Texas and Arkansas?

Do you work for Taurus?

 

[tiberius]

I don’t see this as a threat at all.

New Jersey outlaws hollow point ammunition as well. Does this mean that any companies which make non-hollow point defensive ammunition are playing into the hands of the gun grabbers and therefore should be boycotted? This is exatly what many are saying about Taurus.

The legislation is the problem, not the manufacturer. There is money on the table for a company to develop new technology that may allow them to sell more products. Someone will develop one. If this causes NJ to outlaw all “dumb guns†then you will happy that other manufactures, like Taurus, will have options as well.

The mere existence of a "functional smart gun" does not cause a loss of the RKBA. My message to all New Jerseyites is simple…..Change your laws!

 

[ksnecktieman]

The technology is not bad. A law requiring it is bad, in my humble opinion. BUT, if such a gun were made, I might be able to get my sis to have one in her house. I am sure there are people in this world that would want one. After all safe is a factor for everyone.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Re Hollow Point argument, faulty logic, not a good analogy. Jacketed bullets still WORK, they are just as reliable as hollow points. Smart guns most certainly will not be.

BTW Hollow points are legal in NJ to hunt with, or on the range or in your dwelling; they just aren't legal to carry (moot since we, the non-elite, can't carry anyway). (http://www.evannapppen.com)

As far as "change the laws", I've addressed that previously from an individual perspective.

On the whole other than Sussex County and few other places, this is the home of rabid liberal Democrats. We can't even get the bear hunt through when they are a clear menace to "the children".

Without support from around the country to at least discourage manufacturers from participating in this sham, there's not a lot of hope.

 

[Highland Ranger]

The technology is not bad. A law requiring it is bad, in my humble opinion. BUT, if such a gun were made, I might be able to get my sis to have one in her house. I am sure there are people in this world that would want one. After all safe is a factor for everyone.

Not true. I am in the business and I can tell you that biometric technology that get's you above 90% recognition is considered good. Hell OCR (Optical Character recognition) still isn't 100% and 10 years ago 85% recognition was the standard.

Would you want a gun that failed even one time in 100? That was the knock on autoloaders back before they were made reliable . . what do you expect out of a self defense autoloader today (as compared to a revolver) a failure in a 1000 rounds or maybe more?

Even if they can eventually get that degree of reliability with this new technology, do you think money grabbing Taurus will wait to go to production until they get those kinds of numbers? Ha!

And we in NJ will have NO CHOICE in the matter. We will have to buy whatever they go to market with - and this doesn't even address all those what if scenarios that could effect reliability, what if I use my other hand, what if my hand is covered with blood, or mustard?! if they use voice recogniton, what if my throat is cut, or I have a sore throat or because I am panicked my voice pitch changes . . . . .too damn many what if's!

RE Safe - Safe is a mindset; not a device!

It's never about safety or the children; it's always about naive people who want some utopian society and will give away all their rights just for the illusion of it. It's about less personal responsibility and accountability and the government taking care of me.

It's an empty promise - even the police cars don't say to "Protect and Serve" anymore like they did when I was a kid because the Police know they can't protect you.

And not to pick on this poster but in general, you guys all know that because you are part of this community . . . . so I don't get it, why wouldn't you boycott a traitorous manufacturer like Taurus and help us and ultimately yourself, out?