Taurus joins PRNJ to make sci-fi pistol

[gunsmith]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/7383979.htm
Hasn't Taurus learned from S&W's mistake?
Posted on Mon, Dec. 01, 2003

Manufacturer joins the state's 'smart gun' effort
By Tom Bell
Associated Press

TRENTON - Officials at the New Jersey Institute of Technology say efforts to develop a "smart gun" have taken another step forward with the addition of a weapons manufacturer as a partner.

Taurus International Manufacturing of Florida agreed last week to try to design a handgun that would incorporate technology that would allow only designated users to fire it.

While the Newark institute is developing the grip-recognition technology, another partner company, Metal Storm, is working on an electronic firing system for the smart gun.

Nearly a year ago, New Jersey became the first state to enact a law that will require that new handguns for sale use such technology.

The law, promoted as a way to reduce accidental handgun deaths, will not be enforced until three years after the state attorney general determines that a smart-gun prototype is safe and commercially available.

"The addition of a commercial producer to our technology partnership is vital to ensuring that our design reflects the combined influences of efficient manufacturing practice and consumer preferences," said Donald H. Sebastian, vice president for research and development at the New Jersey Institute of Technology.

"By working prototype and commercial-product design in parallel, we will shave years off the development cycle."

Opponents of the state's smart-gun legislation, including groups that promote the rights of gun owners, said smart-gun technology was still years from the market and would be legally challenged anyway.

"This whole legislation is just waiting for hundreds of lawsuits if it does happen," said Nancy Ross, spokeswoman for the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs.

After the legislation passed, institute researchers moved ahead with a patented design that would embed, in both sides of a gun handle, small electronic sensors that would identify the user's grip. Only those whose grips had been programmed into the gun could fire it instantly.

Metal Storm's firing system would use barrels preloaded with bullets. That would allow the gun's owner to interchange barrels with different calibers.

Taurus would provide a gun that uses both technologies with a minimum of moving parts, institute officials said.

Gun owners fear the law will force them to buy just one model of gun that is cheap, heavy and hard to use, Ross said.

 

[AnklePocket]

You beat me to it. How dare you?
Am I wrong to lead a worldwide boycott of Taurus? I soon won't be a New Jersey resident anymore, but I did say that any company that joins the Smart Gun Movement will have to answer to the American gun owners. Is Taurus smart? Maybe not. You tell me.

 

[NukemJim]

That is actually an interesting idea in that, if I am not mistaken, all of the enacted and proposed legislation for "smart guns" ( an oxymoron IMHO )
exempt military and police. It is one thing to entice a company to do something by dangling large police/military contracts in front of them. If they cannot sell these guns to police/military who else is going to buy them ( except those poor souls who live in NJ ) ?

My question is if such a device becomes available and then goes off the market in a year or three what happens in NJ then ?

Anyone know ?

NukemJim

 

[TheOtherOne]

I would buy a smart gun IF the government wasn't trying to shove it down my throat.

 

[Preacherman]

Guys, keep your shirt on... I don't think this is nearly as bad as some are painting it. Consider the following:

1. Whether we like it or not, the consumer safety aspect of firearms is relatively unregulated. There are all sorts of laws, regulations, etc. governing the manufacture, acquisition, and lawful use of firearms, but very few indeed covering their safety features. Other products are subject to vast quantities of BS in terms of consumer safety (e.g. ever tried to use a modern ride-on lawnmower?).

2. There is growing pressure in various states (e.g. California, NJ, NY, Illinois, etc.) to apply consumer safety standards to firearms. These are big markets: if firearms don't meet their standards, those firearms will be blocked from sale there.

3. The firearms manufacturers must stay in business by selling guns. If they can't sell guns, they go broke. If they're blocked from selling guns in states that represent half the US gun market, they go broke - a bit more slowly, but they still go broke.

4. Many firearms manufacturers are involved in the search for better consumer safety features for their products, driven by the requirements of the states mentioned above. Taurus is just the latest to announce it: Colt has been doing it since the late '90's, S&W is doing it, and I understand Ruger is also looking at the issue. I also understand that a few years ago, over the vehement opposition of Gaston Glock, the local subsidiary actually produced a sample Glock with an external safety system, at the behest of NY officials, who were threatening to "blacklist" Glock for police use. Fortunately, this didn't proceed any further.

5. Those of us (including myself) who regard the "smart gun" as the abomination of desolation are stuck with these realities. Whether we like it or not, states are going to pass laws requiring "smart guns"; whether we like it or not, manufacturers are going to HAVE to respond to this legislation, or risk going out of business.

My solution? Buy lots of guns with nice pre-smart-gun technology! That way, when this is eventually foisted on us, I can ignore it. I'll also have lots of older guns that are likely to significantly appreciate in value, as others try to buy a gun that won't give them the "Blue Screen Of Death" when they really need it.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Whether we like it or not, states are going to pass laws requiring "smart guns";

Not necessarily.

 

[dtt]

There are no smart guns, only smart gun owners. And none of them would buy a Taurus.

 

[Master Blaster]

Butcher knives and chefs knives are large very sharp inherrently dangerous devices. One slip and you can wind up in the emergency roon getting many stitches.

Did you know that there is virtually no consumer safety regulations for knives????

Guns like knives dont need a consumer safety regulation that interferes with their utility.

How many guns fire without the trigger being pulled by the user???

How many guns shoot in a direction other than that in which they are pointed???

How many guns accidentally load themselves with no user intervention???


The reason there is not CS regulation for firearms is that none is needed.

The CS has to be taught to the user, just like using a butcher knife, dangerous if carelessly used, safe if used properly.

 

[whoami]

I soon won't be a New Jersey resident anymore

Funny....but a good number of the pro-gun Jersey-ites I know are saying the same thing....

That is actually an interesting idea in that, if I am not mistaken, all of the enacted and proposed legislation for "smart guns" ( an oxymoron IMHO ) exempt military and police.

Long story made extremely short - NJ Leg comes up with smart gun initiate, intending it for LEO to prevent cops from being killed with their own gun. LEOs tell the NJ Leg 'long walk-short pier...get the q?', so the Legs rework the measure as a 'handgun safety' thing. Standard boilerplate gun laws in NJ exempt LEO/Mil from any restrictions, but since they know they're mucking big time, NJ Legs exempt themselves from liability, so they can't be sued over it.

Guys, keep your shirt on... I don't think this is nearly as bad as some are painting it.

I have to disagree on this one. The law itself, in NJ as I believe NJ is the only state to have this on the books, is meaningless only so long as no working firearm meeting the State AGs definition of a 'smart-gun' comes to market anywhere in the nation. Any gun manufacturer who signs on to this project is in effect stating that they wish to hasten and bring about the enactment of such a law. So in effect their decision is not inseparable from a political viewpoint, and as such this goes well beyond issues of consumer safety and into the realm of politically advocating these laws. Note that the specifics of the report are not that Taurus is developing a 'smart gun' in general, but that they are specificaly joining the NJIT project which was created for the sole pupose of making this NJ law a reality. An action like this would be akin to Bushmaster going before congress to lobby for Feinsteins assault weapons ban. Not to consider the whole issue of ammunition. The more gun manufactures who sign on to this project, the closer it will come to bringing the law into effect, AND the more ammunition antis will have to bring this law to other states. They're cutting the hamstrings of their customers, and while normally this is a bad thing it is EVEN worse when speaking of further eroding the 2A. Playing this down, or ignoring it, would be extraordinarily bad....

 

[Preacherman]

Whoami, I take your point, and it's a good one: but you're still not seeing the "big picture" on this.

There are many firearms manufacturers involved in the "smart weapon" project - Colt, S&W, Ruger, etc. are all pursuing their own studies. They have no choice! Sooner or later, this is going to be mandated by a number of states. NJ is the first, but I'll lay my pension that California, New York, Illinois, Massachusetts and others will shortly join the party. Also, the Department of Defence is a major (think hundreds of millions of dollars!) investor in Metal Storm, the Australian company which has partnered with the NJIT on their smart gun proposals. The pressure is overwhelming on gun manufacturers to get on board, or lose out completely in the markets where such guns are required.

I don't see any national standard being mandated in the short to medium term, and "gun-friendly" states are unlikely to hop on the bandwagon: but it's a given, a fact of life, an inescapable reality, that some states are going to insist on "smart gun" technology in the short term. There is no escaping this - the electorate in those states is simply too complaisant to be willing to vote against such technology, or the politicians who want it.

I agree with you - and others - that "smart gun" technology is filled with pitfalls, problems and dangers: but IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, whether we like it or not. We have to face reality here. We cannot and will not stop this from happening, at least in certain states, and possibly, in the long term, on a national level. I hope we can postpone the latter for as long as possible: but we're going to have to work very hard to do it. As I said earlier, the best means of proactive defence is to stock up on "pre-smart-weapon" guns, so as to ensure that we aren't handicapped by the inevitable trend.

 

[jimpeel]

One of the goals of "Smart Gun" technology?

This from an e-mail I received from David Codrea back in 2000:

As you read this story, think of another headline: "SATELLITE DEACTIVATES ALL REGISTERED 'SMART GUNS'"
David Codrea


TORONTO STAR
January 19, 2000

Stolen car brought to a halt by satellite

Tracking device nets suspects after 401 trip

By Bob Mitchell and Tracy Huffman
Toronto Star Staff Reporters

Three teenagers are facing charges after the stolen car they were
driving was stopped by remote control on Islington Ave.
Provincial police were waiting as an alarm-monitoring company used
satellite technology to stop the wheels of the 1999 Chrysler Intrepid
and the surprised occupants bailed out.

Police say Monday's incident is among the first cases in Greater Toronto
where a stolen vehicle was stopped through the use of a computer
tracking device inside the car.

Vehicle-tracking devices are commonly installed in luxury cars as well
as rental vehicles, said Andrew Dolan, business manager of Bob Bannerman
Dodge Jeep on Don Mills Rd.

"It's an alarm system and a tracking device at the same time," he said.
"When the car is stolen, the company notifies the customer through a
pager system. Then the company will track (the car) via satellite
because there is a chip in the car."

The remote control system can turn off the car's engines and lock the
doors, trapping the thief in the vehicle.

Police said the Intrepid, which had been stolen from a Thrifty Car and
Truck Rental lot in Kitchener, was equipped with a Global Positioning
System tracking device monitored by Navlynx Canada Inc.

The car was stolen around 2:15 p.m. and was seen travelling on Highway
401 toward Toronto, said Constable Lisa Anderson of the Port Credit
detachment of the Ontario Provincial Police.

"As officers were getting into position to intercept the stolen vehicle,
they received information updates (from the police dispatcher, in
contact with the monitoring company) as to the exact speed of the
vehicle, its exact location, how much gas was left in the fuel tank,
even information as to which doors on the motor vehicle were locked or
unlocked," Anderson said.

"Officers were also informed that there was no need to attempt to stop
the vehicle because the monitoring company had the capabilities to
disable the vehicle once it reached a safe location to do so."

Police say the vehicle left Highway 401 and travelled south on Islington
Ave. Navlynx disabled the vehicle as it came to a stop at the
intersection of Islington Ave. and Norseman St., where officers moved in
and nabbed the three teenagers as they ran from the disabled vehicle.

The security system, which can be used in any vehicle, costs about $400
installed, and the customer pays a monthly fee of around $20, Dolan
said.

"This kind of device could be the answer to many of our ills," said
Ontario Provincial Police Superintendent Jay Hope, regional commander
for Greater Toronto. "This is the first time I know of a stolen car
being stopped this way on our highways.

"Company officials said they've used it before in finding rental
vehicles that have been stolen, but this is the first time it's ever
been used for stolen vehicle being stopped by police and the occupants
arrested.

"This technology would greatly assist all police officers in protecting
all persons against property damage, serious injuries and deaths in
relation to police pursuits."

A 17-year-old youth was charged with theft over $5,000, possession over
$5,000, dangerous operation of a motor vehicle, failure to comply with
probation, breach of recognizance and driving a motor vehicle without a
licence.

Also arrested and charged with possession over $5,000 was a 16 year-old
and a 15-year-old.

The 15-year-old also is charged with possession of a controlled
substance. The names of the youths are protected by the Young Offenders
Act.

 

[jimpeel]

Although some may think this is getting repititious ...

Smart gun technology is a trojan horse -- wherein the defects which are not currently inherent to guns, and never have been found to exist in court, will be designed in -- and the manufacturers will be sued into oblivion.

We have to shout this from the rooftops and in the ear of every manufacturer who will listen. They are weaving their own rope.

 

[jimpeel]

"Smart guns" should have a profound impact on the leading cause of firearms deaths -- suicide.

Reprinted from TFL:

A great analysis on "smart gun" function.

This was posted, as a reply to another poster, at the old, now defunct, Pathfinder site by a person to whom I cannot offer attribution; but it was so profound that I kept a copy of the post. I share it with you now.

On Smart guns

Actually - you might wish to consider the real world when you talk about electronically personalized firearms, you will end up with specifications something like this ----

Must be able to be used with either hand

Must be able to be used with gloves

Must allow others to be permitted to use the firearm

Must not significantly increase weight or size of firearm

Must have 100% reliable power supply (if needed)

Must have extremely low rates of false negatives and false positives

Must not be affected by temperature, dirt, precipitation, oils, solvents, or perspiration

Must not be affected by calluses, abrasions, lacerations, or other tissue damage or variations

Must not work simply because owner is in close proximity to firearm when another person is using it

Must not be simple to cheat or remove

A temperature range requirement ( -50F to +150F).

Must not be disabled -
by immersion in water.
by exposure to and operation during inclement weather.
by proximity to magnetic fields such as those in industrial facilities.
by proximity to microwave sources such as transmission towers and ovens.
by proximity to radio and TV broadcast towers. (or the radio in LEO vehicles)
by proximity to AC and DC magnetic fields under high voltage transmission lines.
by NMP

Must complete analysis and be in "go" mode in a maximum of 0.25 seconds after application of control digit.

Must be in "no-go" mode in a maximum of 0.1 seconds after control digit is removed.

How much wiggle are we going to allow the control digit to have on the sensor pad before this contraption says that is not the correct control digit?

Must be serviceable at local firearms dealer or armorer. Requirement to return to factory and have authorized user at factory is unacceptable.

What is the useful life of the electronic components that we are putting into this service? Are we going to measure service life by hours energized, or by shots fired, what? Should we consider the service life to be longer if installed in a pistol chambered for 9mmX19mm than we would for installation in a pistol chambered for .45ACP? What happens if we put these electronic components in a Contender chambered for .45/70 Gov't? Must be capable of absorbing without failing the impact loading from a minimum of 10,000 shots.

BTW <deleted> I, and many other people, have the skill to bypass any such interlock that can be designed into a firearm and do so in less time than it would take us to remove and replace the handgrips. Also given the condition that I would not wish to save a trigger lock for reuse I can remove one without damaging the the firearm in less than 2 minutes. Trigger locks and personalized firearms have no more than momentary effect at stopping a thief from operating the firearm.

 

[Dain Bramage]

Master Blaster, be careful what you sarcastically wish for. Australia is currently trying to ban those little, plastic swords that skewer olives in lounge drinks.

Oh, and true story, I just cut myself fifteen minutes ago folding my swiss army knife. They should have a warning on those things!

 

[AnklePocket]

My Letter to the Editor is below that was in 3 major newspapers 11 months ago. I won't be writing anymore Letters because the people around here don't care and where I'm moving to won't allow further erosion of our Constitutional Rights. I propose that we let Taurus know exactly how we feel. That would be the American way, I believe.

"My favorite thing about the Smart Gun Bill is that police are exempt from using the technology and the state can't be held liable when something goes horribly wrong. Childproofing a firearm is devoid of even a remote connection to reality. The are much better ways to keep children safe.

This technology is inherently flawed, as is the entire gun control movement. Both focus on the law-abiding gun owner. Four things are certain:
1. Lawyers will have a field day with this one.
2. The smart gun chip descrambler market is already forming.
3. Smart guns will cost more lives than they save.
4. 9 out of 10 criminals favor gun control.
Now if I can only get my cell phone and computer to stop malfunctioning when I seem to need them most."

 

[ny32182]

I for one will never own a firearm that requires any sort of electronics to operate.

Second, the entire firearms industry could take a stand, by entering an agreement never to bring such a gun to the market. This would render laws like NJ's useless.

I suspect every firearms manufactuer is researching their own electronic gun technology behind the scenes, to have it ready in the event that they need it. Thats just smart business practice from their point of view. That, however, is a far cry from actively joining a state sponsored initiative to bring such a gun to the market more quickly.

The second such a gun hits the market, "smart gun" laws will pop up in any of the commie states that don't have them already, and depending on if the dims are in control of the country at the time, it could become national law as well.

 

[Lochaber]

There is another theory. Folks, remember that this is NJ, perhaps the most corrupted state in the union. It may be that we will never see a smart gun come out of NJIT/MS/Taurus, and it has nothing to do with laws. First of all, almost no one will ever buy the smart guns. Which means that no one will buy handguns in NJ. On the bright side we can still get a good cheap shotgun so the home defence issue is not critical and we can't carry anyway. That means that any smart gun commercial product is bound to lose money.

Further more, NJIT/MS/Taurus are right now making piles of money from state taxes to develop such a gun. They have been getting piles of money for years. They have no reason to ever produce a gun and not sell it, when the get money for free now. And the Legs get their cookie points by throwing money at it every year and getting their name in the papers. It actually serves neither of them to ever sell a single gun.

Look, this state is so corrupt, that when plans to build a sports arena in Newark fell off the budget, the Gov decided to try to float a 2 billion (with a B) bond in name to reorganize the higher education, in the proccess setting up the Newark state university branch as a stand alone unit, which will proabably need its own sports complex in Newark.

Never assume that anything in NJ works like it might in the rest of the Union.

Loch

 

[geekWithA.45]

You'll notice that EVERY TIME this is written about in the press, NJ is noted as _the first_ state to pass such "safety regulations".

May god grant it's also the last.

. Whether we like it or not, states are going to pass laws requiring "smart guns"; whether we like it or not, manufacturers are going to HAVE to respond to this legislation, or risk going out of business.

My solution? Buy lots of guns with nice pre-smart-gun technology! That way, when this is eventually foisted on us, I can ignore it. I'll also have lots of older guns that are likely to significantly appreciate in value, as others try to buy a gun that won't give them the "Blue Screen Of Death" when they really need it.

Forgive me, Preacherman, but this is the play of one who expects to lose.

Is that what we're doing here?

Preparing to lose?

Burying guns, amputating the pistol grip from the RA 96, making a pump action AKs, welding the mag onto a FAL so it'll pass CA muster, or any of the other furtive things that we do to oppose and confound our enemies are the confident actions of winners, who are feel completely secure in their rights?

I again apologize, in another thread I mentioned I've just gotten out of my yearly NJ beg for a pistol purchase permit proctological, to return home to the news that SCOTUS again ducks the issue.

From my perspective, Things Are Not Good.

 

[AnklePocket]

Hmmm, geekWithA.45, let me see... Smart guns, purchase permits, no CCW, Firearm ID Cards, partial birth abortion, horrifying school funding, low-income housing requirements in every town, crisis levels of dereliction of duty, very sad levels of pay-to-play politics, Republicans that are actually Democrats and not good ones at that, $6400/year of property taxes in a townhome and so on. Summed up in 2 words: "Buh-Bye". If you like I can give you the name of Bucks County, PA's greatest realtor and one of the best mortgage brokers anywhere.
I say that action from the buying public needs to be taken against Taurus in the form of a boycott that will far surpass the S&W situation. One less gun manufacturer will maybe strengthen the position of the others. Obviously, Taurus is trying to weaken the position of the entire industry, our Constitution and America as we know it in the name of a little political correctness and I don't like it.
Please forgive me if I'm a little moody, but I've developed a generally bad attitude.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Nothing new here. Taurus has been on the "smart" gun gravy train for years.

- pdmoderator

 

[Harry Tuttle]

The only way i can see this technology reliably working is
for the user to have implanted ID transponders,
like those rice sized ones they tag pets with.

Better get one implanted in each hand.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Smart gun technology is a trojan horse -- wherein the defects which are not currently inherent to guns, and never have been found to exist in court, will be designed in -- and the manufacturers will be sued into oblivion.

Yep.

 

[jimpeel]

Lochaber

On the bright side we can still get a good cheap shotgun so the home defence issue is not critical and we can't carry anyway.

On the not-so-bright side, what if the guy who is invading your home has your child in front of him? With a handgun, you could take the shot if you deemed it necessary. With a shotgun, no matter how necessary you deem it, you can't take the shot.

 

[foghornl]

One more reason to mark Taurus off my 'approved vendors list'.

 

[WonderNine]

God damnit.

And I really wanted a Taurus 9mm revolver.

But guess what, I'll probably buy one anyways, but I don't have any other choice unless I want an old Smith & Sellout 9mm, but that's a whole other discussion.

Or a Ruger SP-101 9mm....but that's also a whole other discussion...

Or a Charter Arms 9mm revolver...but that's a whole other discussion. I hear if you buy a Charter Arms gun they demand custody rights to your firstborn, otherwise the gun will blow up in your hand...is that right?