"Smart gun" development (and boycott) question

[Kestrel]

Double Naught Spy,

Well, as ksnecktieman noted, how about going ahead and adding a device to the guns that allows the government to deactivate it when THEY feel it's not appropriate for you to shoot it. Maybe they'll program them so they will ONLY work when you're at a state-approved firing range. (Wouldn't want it to go off at home and hurt somebody...)

Yep, OnStar not only tracks your position, it tells them your speed and driving habits. Cars are also going to have black boxes that record your driving. They will also have devices that the police can shut them down remotely with.

DNS, you seem to be trusting the government to know what's best. That's what these technologies are being developed for. It's not for you and me. This is not like bullet technology (which is not "smart" technology). This is designed to INHIBIT our freedoms. They are not out to improve our freedom.

Let's wait a few years and see who was right.

Steve

 

[GigaBuist]

I beleive I've heard about this particular smart gun company before. The name is very familiar and if they're based in South Africa then they're the guys. The tech sounds very similar to what I have read about in the past so I assume it's the same guys.

I've got a bunch of mixed feelings on this.

I'm totally against the whole "smart gun" law that NJ has. I'm OK with people experimenting with it but if you ask me the law shouldn't state that it should be 3 years after the tech is available that that's all civilians can buy, it should be 3 years after LEO are mandated to use it 100% that that's all they should buy. If anything. If they want a smart gun law, fine, but only after LEO follows suite, along with the local Guard forces. MAYBE then it'll be excusable.

If I have my history right, this company in particular has two technological deals on the plate:

1) Recognition technology
2) Electronic detonation technology

The whole idea behind #1 just plain stinks technically speaking. It's not reliable. It may prevent the "I grab your own gun and shoot you" scenario but it won't stop criminals from using the weapons once stolen. Once a device is in somebody's hands it is not secure regardless of all the techno mumbo jumbo that you put into it. Once given physical access to circuitry anything is possible. Anybody that thinks otherwise is foolish, or willfully ignorant, but not necessarily stupid. You can't keep a computerized gun any more secure than a computer... and once you have physical access to a computer anything is possible. Anybody thats into this kind of thing knows it to be true. Whoever is making this biotech recognition stuff KNOWS it won't keep a stolen gun from being used by a criminal. I'll take a key based steel lock over that stuff any day, and I'm a tech geek. When the steel lock is off I know I can shoot it. I don't have that guarantee with biotech devices.

#2 I kind of like, although NOT for self defense. The idea of a laser based ignition system would make a great target pistol if you ask me, as you remove moving parts from the system and it's far easier to tune software based solutions than mechanical ones. For target guys this may be a great thing. I sure wouldn't trust it with my life though. Not for 10-20 years anyway.

The last I saw about them, regarding point #2 was that each round was loaded into it's own barrel and the detonation device (laser) moved to each round instead of the round moving to the laser. Each round went out a different barrel! That is NOT something you want to deal with in SD or target shooting... accuracy is a problem! If shot #3 and #6 land in different spots than the rest it's suitable for neither application. The idea behind this was you'd have to take the barrel/magazine to the gunstore to get it reloaded for you everytime with serial numbered rounds so that they could be accounted for. That isn't something you can train with... therefore suitable for neither SD or competion which makes it entirely useless.

However it does provide for automatic fire as all mechanisms are in place and it's only a matter of software to keep you from rattling off 10-15 rounds with a single trigger pull. That might make for a nifty tool (with limited use) but I do NOT want that ability open to me personally unless fully auto weapons go back to pre-1934 status. My brain is already capable of putting me in jail, given my technical skills, and I do not want the possibiliby of some JBT busting down my door because I might have the ability to actually make the thing fully auto with the flick of a few keyboard strokes. Paranoid? Yes... but I have a reason to be that way. If I typed the words to the song I'm listenting to right now into my keyboard I'm in violation of a federal offense. Scary crap.

If we didn't have the legal tangles that we do now I'd be all in favor of such research and products... but I can't in good conscience approve of this mode of operation given today's political climate.

 

[learnedmonkey]

There is no smart gun technology that can be invented that can't be circumvented. If the development of smart guns leads to the abolition of old-fashioned "dumb guns", then what you'll see is an expansion of the gunsmithing skill set to include modifying the smart circuitry in such a way that any internal big-brother style tracking/controlling devices would be rendered impotent while maintaining an illusion to big-brother that it's still working.

Just look at computer network security; invent a smarter firewall, and hackers get smarter. Invent a tougher encryption algorithm, and it's not a matter of if it will be broken, but how long it will take until somebody does it. There's already a small industry devoted to circumventing regional lockouts on DVD players and video game consoles. Handgun modchips aren't even far-fetched. Any GPS-visible transponder small enough to fit into a handgun can be fit into any number of things.

The federal government can't employ enough people to have somebody tracking every smart gun every moment. If the gov't gains that kind of power over your handguns, the surest way for them to push law-abiding gun owners to defy those laws and get illegal mods done to their smart guns is to abuse it.

But I'd bet it won't come to that; any hidden big-brother circuitry in the smart handguns will be discovered, because no matter how illegal they make it to tamper with the gun, some people with a lot of technological know-how will do it anyway just to see how it's done. Once that happens, it will get leaked, and moderate liberals like myself who tend not to pay too much attention to gun laws will start pounding the pavement to get the attention of our congresspersons and writing initiatives to circumvent the state legislatures. Remember, they outlawed alcohol with a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT for fourteen years, and not only did alcohol sales flourish, organized crime got so serious they had to invent the .357 magnum. (See, something good came out of prohibition after all!

My advice is to not panic.

Or if you do, you could always move to Canada...

 

[racenutz]

I don't agree with your characterization of my statements - My statements stand as stated, not paraphrased.

I didn’t paraphrase your statements. I asked a simple question, if you boycott companies for products they haven't even made where does your boycotting of companies stop? I know people that think any company that does anything against the RKBA should be boycotted. I you use that line of thinking, eventually you won't be buying guns from ANY company.

Shrugging your shoulders and saying, all manufacturers are doing it (and I repeat, what other manufacturer has promised a working prototype within a year?) so let it pass?

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. Should legislation like this be fought, absolutely!!!! I just don't agree that boycotting a company is the right way to do it. What I would do is this, here's Taurus's customer service #(305) 624-1115, call them & give them an ear full telling them that you won't ever be purchasing any of their firearms using "smart" technology. I'd also explain to them your concerns about how this will affect the laws in your state. Believe it or not, gun manufactures are in business for one & only one reason -- TO MAKE MONEY. If their marketing research indicates that they won't be able to sell this product & turn a profit, it WILL NOT make it to the marketplace.

Do you work for Taurus?

Why would you even care & why would even ask a question like this? Are you really that paranoid?

The answer if you must know, is No. I don't even own any of their products.

And we in NJ will have NO CHOICE in the matter.

Oh yes you do!!!! Unless this enacted federally (which it won't be) you can move to a state with friendlier gun laws.

 

[Highland Ranger]

quote:

I didn’t paraphrase your statements. I asked a simple question, if you boycott companies for products they haven't even made where does your boycotting of companies stop? I know people that think any company that does anything against the RKBA should be boycotted. I you use that line of thinking, eventually you won't be buying guns from ANY company.
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Your conclusion is that ultimately we won't have any companies to buy guns from and it's wrong.

When Detroit was turning out crap in the 80's and the foreign cars really gobbled up market share, GM/Ford et al had a choice: make a quality vehicle at a fair price or go out of business. They wised up.

Just like when Colt made a bad 1911 but the demand remained, we got Kimber.

So the point is in a free market economy, if we only support companies that support RKBA and none of the current ones do, then there will be NEW ones and the current ones will either wise up or go away and good riddance.

Hell, I'll finance one. What do you need a machine shop, an engineer and a machinist? I think the Friday night poker game has it covered. Might be more fun that what we're all doing now too!

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quote:
Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. Should legislation like this be fought, absolutely!!!! I just don't agree that boycotting a company is the right way to do it. What I would do is this, here's Taurus's customer service #(305) 624-1115, call them & give them an ear full telling them that you won't ever be purchasing any of their firearms using "smart" technology. I'd also explain to them your concerns about how this will affect the laws in your state. Believe it or not, gun manufactures are in business for one & only one reason -- TO MAKE MONEY. If their marketing research indicates that they won't be able to sell this product & turn a profit, it WILL NOT make it to the marketplace.
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(point about business being in business to make money is obvious BTW)

Let's see, in the free market economy, what get's a manufacturers attention more? Your limited statement that I won't buy a Smartgun in NJ or everyone's statement that they will BOYCOTT TAURUS, EVERYWHERE, not buying any gun? Seems my way is more effective if we're playing the free market game.



quote:
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Why would you even care & why would even ask a question like this? Are you really that paranoid?

The answer if you must know, is No. I don't even own any of their products.
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Because frankly your arguments don't make sense. Not paranoid. Just trying to figure out your motivation. A stockholder perhaps? Cousin of the CEO?



quote:
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Oh yes you do!!!! Unless this enacted federally (which it won't be) you can move to a state with friendlier gun laws.
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Now that's just silly and immature. People typically don't choose where they live based on gun laws . . . most folks live near family, or choose to relocate for job reasons. Distant third might be health and climate reasons.

Now I guess if you have no family, and you work as something that's needed anywhere (Doctor, teacher, gas station attendant) . . . I guess you could pick up and move. Doesn't apply to me. My life revolves around family.

 

[Hardtarget]

I just hope that right after the FIRST failure of this "smart gun" system we see a major product liability lawsuit hit the news. Sue the elected idiots that pushed for this,as well as the manufacturer. If it gets someone shot/killed its time to go to war in the courts so it can be shown to be the mistake it is. Like I've said, the state police need to show us peons how great smart guns are by "betting their lives" on them for a year. Than we'll see how hot they are for the change.
Mark.

 

[AnklePocket]

The problem isn't that Taurus is working on smart gun technology, but that they've teamed up with the NJIT which is liplocked with the New Jersey smart gun law movement. The existance of said technology is fine, but the pending law isn't. This makes Taurus an accomplice to this very anti-Freedom cause. I don't think that I need to beat a dead horse any further.
I will boycott Taurus for life (and any shop that actively sells Taurus products) with absolutely no chance of reversing my decision and the rest of the gun owning public can make up their own mind. I'm also boycotting New Jersey right after our daughter's school year ends, by the way. Having recently been up close and center I can tell you that New Jersey is worse than you might think. I recently ran for office and many influential people in the community said that they're voting for me, but can't say so publicly. Many told my wife that they're voting for me, but please don't tell anyone. Freedom?