Smith and Wesson 10XX 10mm owners, what did you do to them?

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I'm not saying the development of the 40 S&W was a bad thing, only that it was no good reason For the FBI to dump the 10mm. Quote some announcement from the FBI, Quantico, etc, but the REAL reasons don't seem to have been announced, nor does anyone care anymore (except us).
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In reality there was no good reason to adopt the 10mm. Ammunition existed at the time in 9mm and 45 that passed the FBI protocal. They needed a scape goat and the 9mm was it they couldn't choose the 45 otherwise the question of why wern't they already carrying a 45 would come up.
 
mavracer, doesn't that depend on the view that performance in excess of the FBI standard is useless? Since nobody contends that even FBI-compliant handgun rounds are death-rays, isn't that a bad assumption? (FWIW, I tend to agree about the 9mm scapegoat issue.)
 
Weeding out agents that can't shoot would have been accomplished with the requirement of mastering the 10mm. If you can shoot the 10, you can probably manage the .45, 9mm, 40, etc. THEN you can let the agents that did qual with the 10mm carry what they want. Being able to shoot isn't the end all, but too often agencies hire smart guys that can't master some basic manual skills, like shooting, hand-to-hand, officer survival tactics, handcuffing, driving etc. I knew of one major LE agency on Ohio's Lake Erie shore that occasionally qualified their officers by adding .38 cal holes to their target with pencils. Personally, I was never comfortable around officers who shot a 50-69% score, but got a passing grade with a pencil.........................
 
Loosedhorse said:
To clarify: the 952 is a pistol offered by the PC (Performance Center). It has an amazing trigger. I hope that translates to their being able to do the same (or close) for your 1006.
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Yeah, okay, that is kind of what I was thinking when I looked at their catalog. I'll mention that, thanks.
 
As far as the FBI, I have to say that this pistol isn't a good one size fits all. The Glock 19/22 is. I can see how some folks would have trouble holding it, but I can also see how they could learn to master it. It may be harder for some people. Then again, if the FBI wanted a watered down load, and the .40 did it and allowed for a smaller frame, lighter pistol, and shorter grip, well then whatever. Notice the .40 is pretty much a static specialty load. You can't underload 'em much, and you can't load 'em hot either --it is THE perfect compromise in a pistol load ever done if you ask me (whether or not you like it, think about the compromise itself --the 1006 was not needed to fire the load the FBI desired).

For me, this 1006 fits my hands well. Feels odd still, but it is growing on me. I shot okay with it the first time, but I'd like a better trigger, sights, maybe grips (maybe not). It handled some powerful loads like they were nothing. I think I'd like to carry this pistol once I fire it more and feel confident in it. It is a lot like a 1911, just a little bigger (and a lot heavier). Oh yeah, and it slings 180gr. Gold Dots at 1344fps and recovers like a rattlesnake!

Anyway, forget about the FBI. Everybody with a 10mm knows the stories. They didn't do anyting to their triggers I'm interested in, so I'd like to hear about trigger jobs in 3rd gen autos, what can be done, that kind of thing. Experiences with it, what kinds of goods are available, any mods or barrels for suppressors, whatever.
 
The third gen Smiths are what they are great service pistols. The triggers even with work still aren't very good. I had several friends who tried to use them for IPSC in the early '90s even converted to SA. I've left my 1076's trigger alone I don't want any added liability in the case of a SD shooting. Besides I have really gotten to the point that a good trigger works as well as a great one does. I shoot 3 to 4 inch groups with my 1076 without support, I can't do much better than 2.5" with irons anyway.
 
mavracer said:
The third gen Smiths are what they are great service pistols. The triggers even with work still aren't very good. I had several friends who tried to use them for IPSC in the early '90s even converted to SA. I've left my 1076's trigger alone I don't want any added liability in the case of a SD shooting. Besides I have really gotten to the point that a good trigger works as well as a great one does. I shoot 3 to 4 inch groups with my 1076 without support, I can't do much better than 2.5" with irons anyway.
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Hey, thanks! I more so want a nicer trigger because I'm a bit of a trigger snob. I know the Smith ten is what it is like you say, but if I can just get that pre-travel out and a bit crisper I'll be happy. I looked at the action and could tell it would be possible, but I'm probably not the one to do it.

I do appreciate all the comments on here, I now know not to expect "phenomenal" from the trigger. But I am now curious as to whether or not S&W can put the 952 trigger in it... I'll have to call during their hours when I remember it. If anyone knows if the 952 will fit and if it is worth it, I'd like to know.

If all they do is polish and change springs though, I can do that. What I can't do is stone parts in a special jig that I don't have --you know what I mean, you can look at a job and say, "yeah, I can do that" or "no, get a pro". I'm on the fence here at the moment, so if I find there is not "magic" solution, I'll break out the cotton drums and try out some springs. Definitely will be getting the recoil spring pack though, as a handloader I NEED stuff like that!
 
As for the FBI thing (sorry to bring it up, but it just crossed my mind and it came up here anyway) I can say now for a fact that adopting another pistol as a "one size fits all" was a good idea. Recoil has nothing to do with it, this thing is so heavy that recoil difference from 1+gr. 800x is nearly imperceptible. What is obvious is that small hands cannot easily operate the slide release and safety, and I bet it would feel awkward too. I have long fingers, and I have to change my grip slightly to operate the slide release. That women couldn't handle the recoil is absurd. My wife is VERY recoil sensitive, she got tired of firing mags in her 649 pretty quick, even thought +P's were a little snappy, but thought the 1006 with 180's at 1344fps were "okay but loud". You heard it here first (or maybe not).

A slimmer grip, slimmer as in depth, is much more desirable IMO for one size fits all, and considering they had decided on an underpowered load for the 10mm, the .40 was just the ticket.

I consider this case solved due to personal experience. I have a G17 and I have 1006 now, and I am POSITIVE the G17, or G22 or whatever, is a better one size fits all. By far.
 
I carried a 1066 for a few years on duty. I had the performance center smooth out the trigger and spring load the slide mounted safety after switching it to a single sided switch. It was spring loaded so you could decock the pistol and as soon as you released it, it snapped back up so I never had to worry about pulling the trigger and finding the safety on by accident.

I have always been a firm believer that DA/SA or DAO duty sidearms should never have a safety engaged. That split second to disengage or the accidental engagement in a struggle may be the difference between you driving home at the end of shift or you going to the hospital in the middle of your shift...

SA guns like high powers and 1911's obviously require a safety, but even carrying a DA/SA gun cocked and locked in my mind defeats the purpose of having any benifit of a DA first shot. If you want a SA first shot, then buy a pistol designed to be carried in SA mode.
 
Okay. I ended up finding the one with the adj. sights I wanted instead, so I ended up selling the other one. They are basically identical, save the sights, and the one I sold was in much better cosmetic condition and had been fired much less. But this "new" one also came with the sought after stainless guide rod with the small spring loaded recoil reducer in the rear.

I called Smith and Wesson and talked to their guys. They wouldn't change the decocker to a safety only, and I they wouldn't disable the mag safety either. The job they do is to stone the sear and a small part on the hammer, and then to change the springs with Wolff springs. So I just broke out the Arkansas stone and a Dremel with a cotton drum and had at it. I disabled the mag safety by removing the plunger, and went ahead and kept the decocker. I changed my mind on that --nyresq is right there. Besides, my trigger job yielded a DA trigger smooth enough to negate the reason I wanted to disable the decocker anyway.

So after I got done, I got a much crisper release, very positive in SA, and the DA pull is a little smoother. I got the spring kits, but so far have been conservative on the weights I changed. I'll work 'em low one at a time until I find the point they fail, then go up a couple weights to be safe and get it reliable. At the point I have a -2lb. hammer spring, a +5% firing pin spring, a 22lb. recoil spring, and a 3.5lb. return spring. Feels good, but we'll see. I'll try lower weights to find the "bottom" as it were, but these springs are either just above factory weight or just below factory weight. They really made a difference though, that is for sure.

Anyway, after reading what I did and learning what they do, I figure I have a very similar trigger job to what they'd do, the Performance Center. They don't smooth out any of the roughness, but I may get around to that later --had they done that, it may have been worth it. It shouldn't be too difficult, but I need to get a bottle of machinists blue before I do it. I like detail work like that though, and I have a few other projects like this that require it.

Overall, I'm very impressed with the pistol and the outcome I got from tuning and tweaking it. It is better than it was, I'd say it is on par with a Beretta trigger to be honest, which isn't bad considering. I'm satisfied now. All I need are the Trijicon adj. inserts and sights and later I'd like to refinish it, but overall she's ready to go I believe.

I also ordered a Milt Sparks holster for it. I'll get that in June I think. I may look out for one of the Sig style decocker compacts next, the 1036? I saw one next to the one I bought, but it had magna-ports in it next to the sights. Did these come from the factory with magna-porting, anyone know? Does it affect the price?
 
My department went to the 1076 because our chief thought everything the FBI did was great. We carried the 10mm subsonic round for duty use. I have no firsthand knowledge of why the FBI decided not to use the pistol. We carried them for several years and I was given mine when I retired. The department transitioned to another Smith in .45 just after I retired because 10mm ammo cost had become prohibitive and because Smith wanted to stop building the gun. They stated they would continue to build them for us but we would have to pay retail price............or they would trade them out for any Smith of our choice one for one. Officers were allowed to buy their service 1076's if they chose to do so at a price of $200. Some did. I would not have even though I purchased every other gun I had carried when we transitioned to something else. Officers with small hands, me included, had problems developing a proper grip or reaching the controls. My scores went from 98-100 to the low 90's when we went from the 66 to the 1076. Quals went down for many others when we went to the 1076 and back up when the .45 was adopted. I shoot other semis very well but I could never master this beast. Mine was thoroughly cleaned and put away in my safe. It hasn't seen the light of day in 12 years. Our department is now carrying the M&P in .45.
 
royal barnes said:
My department went to the 1076 because our chief thought everything the FBI did was great. We carried the 10mm subsonic round for duty use. I have no firsthand knowledge of why the FBI decided not to use the pistol. We carried them for several years and I was given mine when I retired. The department transitioned to another Smith in .45 just after I retired because 10mm ammo cost had become prohibitive and because Smith wanted to stop building the gun. They stated they would continue to build them for us but we would have to pay retail price............or they would trade them out for any Smith of our choice one for one. Officers were allowed to buy their service 1076's if they chose to do so at a price of $200. Some did. I would not have even though I purchased every other gun I had carried when we transitioned to something else. Officers with small hands, me included, had problems developing a proper grip or reaching the controls. My scores went from 98-100 to the low 90's when we went from the 66 to the 1076. Quals went down for many others when we went to the 1076 and back up when the .45 was adopted. I shoot other semis very well but I could never master this beast. Mine was thoroughly cleaned and put away in my safe. It hasn't seen the light of day in 12 years. Our department is now carrying the M&P in .45.
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Hey, thanks for that insight! I always posited that the FBI scrapped the ten for the reasons you mention, not that "women couldn't handle it" which made them sound weak and unable to handle the recoil, which they most certainly could with the FBI watered down round. But most women DO have small hands and that certainly makes operating the controls on this tank difficult to say the least. I have decent size hands and long fingers and it is still kind of a pain, I have to change my grip a little to work the slide release.
 
As I have read the FBI insisted the 1076 have a frame mounted decocker. which Smith had no experience with. Initial deliveries had mechanical problems which Smith fixed but the Bureau really lost interest when the saw the 40 S & W

The decision to download the 10 was made during evals at Quantico (FBI Academy) and not because female agents could not handle them. I own a 1006, 1066, and a 1076 They are well built reliable firearms.
 
I've asked before, what exactly does "evals at Quantico" mean, and what makes one think that it was not the shortcomings of the agents that spelled the demise of the 10mm in the FBI?
 
Quantico, VA is the home of the FBI academy where the evals were conducted, SA Urey Patrick ran the evals.Not sure of the make up of the test group however. I will find the eval notes and post
 
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I think we all knew what "Quantico" referred to, but it's always been murky as to what the NEED was for evaluations of service handguns at that time. They had in hand a powerful, effective service auto (that we all pretty much agree was initially handicapped by the FBI's insistence on a decocker, this contributed to some functioning problems, but those were later corrected). My deepest question is whether the "need" to download it arose from agents failing to adapt to the recoil, and whether in-rank resistance from those agents, and possibly other politics, caused the shift back to the then-new .40 S&W development, rather than any failings on the part of the 10XX series guns or full powered ammo. I have been around LE training circles for 30 years, and of all the cops I have ever known, I know very few that could NOT have been taught on the 10mm full load. Oh, there would have been MUCHO complaining from many, but just like in the military, that could have been dealt with by simply telling them to shut up and deal with it. Most "I can't" types just don't know that they CAN. I think we will find that the truth about the FBI and the 10mm is just that. Many crying "I can't", when they really could have, and could have had a most impressive handgun and cartridge, and carried it along with a most impressive badge.
 
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The search for a more powerful caliber was a direct result of the Miami Shootout.

I don't know how you can assume it was done because of agent attitudes. That's supposition IMO. As I said, the decision was made before the weapon was issued.The 10mm was not even under consideration until SA Patrick brought his personal Colt DE for eval. Then the examination of the 10mm began.

I have no knowledge of the composition of agents who ran the evals. You say in rank agents may have resisted but the decision was made prior to issue to field agents.
 
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I don't think the question is "Why did they adopt the 10mm". Sure that was the Miami incident. The question is why did they need to dump the 10mm in favor of a lesser gun and cartridge. I'm assuming THAT is the evaluation that pertains to the dismissal of the 10mm.
 
Actually IIRC some of the big reasons it was dumped were:

Numerous mechanical problems with the 1076 decockers

The availability of the new 40 S & W cartridge, which gave similar performance to the "FBI load" but could use a 9mm framed gun.

Every decision includes financial impact. Guess the .40 made more sense
 
That is exactly the point of my question: Why does the 40S&W make more sense than the 10mm? If not for FBI agents at the time causing a stir over a cartridge difficult to handle, it would not have been loaded down. Was there really a NEED for a watered down cartridge, or was it just the result of allowing the "I can't" agents to qualify? It obviously had nothing to do with the decocker (the only real complaint, which now seems to be a moot point, as the decockers were corrected).
 
The "FBI" load had similar ballistics to the 40 and they could use 9mm frames.

It was cheaper. What facts are you basing your supposition as to in rank agents complaining "I can't". The eval agents certainly weren't complaining, as they recommended the 180g load at about 980 FPS because of concerns about recoil and the large frame being hard for smaller hands to hold

The decision was made before they were issued. I do not know if field agents participated in the evals or not however..

The decocker issue was a factor in the decision to abandon the 10mm. Lots of field guns had to be returned for repair.
 
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You really can't "explain" the dumping of the full house 10mm on the .40S&W. The decision to download it was made before the .40S&W was developed. The .40 became VIABLE as a replacement for the 10mm ONLY because the FBI already went to a reduced load. I don't have a tape measure right on hand, but I intend to measure the circumference of the 1006 grip and compare it to the Beretta M9 9mm grip. I have this funny feeling that they are not that much different, and that any complaints against the 1006 being too large for the smaller hands would be no different that smaller stature soldiers adapting to the Beretta M9. If soldiers can qualify with a weapon of those dimensions, the FBI should also have been able to qualify people on the 10mm S&W. As with any new gun, the problems with the decocker should have been, and WERE, corrected in reasonable time. The only fault with the S&W 1076 platform was the accomodation to INCLUDE a decocker that the FBI requested, and it only needed a little time to "tweak". So, in reality, the 10xx series S&W is not THAT big, didn't have THAT many problems, and didn't REALLY need to be reduced to "the FBI load". What NEEDED to take place was forcing the agents to ADAPT to the weapon, or fly a desk instead of carry a gun. I will repeat, if a 10 year old girl can learn to master a .44 magnum, a little bitty FBI agent can shoot the 10mm S&W. FBI administrators dropped the ball on training, discipline, and the best gun they are ever likely to have for self defense.
 
IMHO the whole deal with the FBI's adoption of the 10mm was a smoke and mirror act to take the focus off adminastrative desisions and the errors due to protocal. They blamed the 9mm cartridge failure even though there were many other glaring errors. They couldn't adopt the .45acp as that would beg the question "why didn't the FBI already issue a 45 if it's better". They had to have something new.
 
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