Smith & Wesson M&P no longer in US Army pistol trials
- Thread starter Kookla
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barnbwt
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Now that we've whittled the field down to exactly one gun that actually meets the 'modular' requirement that is in the very name of this dog & pony show (P320), how long do you suppose they're gonna drag out the finals testing so as to squeeze this lemon for all it's worth? You know, before concluding they didn't want lemonade, after all. 
TCB
I think you'd find the Italian factory has a lot fewer 'professionals' than you'd expect; I've heard that a huge part of their workforce are classified as 'interns' as a workaround to labor & pay/benefits rules (you have to 'earn' your way into real employment, in other words; maybe even without pay for a period of time). Some article a while back was going on about how a vast number of their corporations --even fairly large ones-- have a nominal staff of exactly fewer than 50 full time employees.
TCB
steveracer
Member
"I think you'd find the Italian factory has a lot fewer 'professionals' than you'd expect; I've heard that a huge part of their workforce are classified as 'interns' as a workaround to labor & pay/benefits rules (you have to 'earn' your way into real employment, in other words; maybe even without pay for a period of time). Some article a while back was going on about how a vast number of their corporations --even fairly large ones-- have a nominal staff of exactly fewer than 50 full time employees."
I will have to go to another thread to talk about life these last three years in Italy, and the way Italian companies (including gun companies) do business. Short version: The whole country is crooked and lazy.
I will have to go to another thread to talk about life these last three years in Italy, and the way Italian companies (including gun companies) do business. Short version: The whole country is crooked and lazy.
herrwalther
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barnbwt said:
The modularity requirement for the US Army trials is not exclusive to having a separate FCU like in the Sig P320/250 pistols. The modularity requirement is mostly to fit shooters with different sized hands, women soldiers etc.
Old Dog
Member
At least a took a while within this thread before the M&P bashers came out.
Having been issued the M&P in a few different incarnations by my employer over the past eight years or so, I've witnessed this pistol in hard use over an extended period of time. While it's not one of my top favorite platforms, I don't feel ill-armed carrying one, and frankly, as far as handguns go, the accuracy level of the M&P wouldn't be a consideration -- it's as adequate as many other service pistols, certainly.
Frankly, the armed forces could do a lot worse. I personally find the M&P to have a few things in its favor over the comparable Glock models, though having invested in the SIG P-320 for personal use, I would, of course, pick a SIG every time ... In the end, though, this type of thread elicits kind of a "who cares?" response for me ... I did my twenty years, and the number of times I knew (which were credible or verifiable) that any service-member had to depend on his issue pistol (not talking any special warfare folks here) to save his bacon kind of renders the whole issue pretty irrelevant (unless, of course, one is a S&W stock-holder ... oh wait, I am! Yikes!).
Having been issued the M&P in a few different incarnations by my employer over the past eight years or so, I've witnessed this pistol in hard use over an extended period of time. While it's not one of my top favorite platforms, I don't feel ill-armed carrying one, and frankly, as far as handguns go, the accuracy level of the M&P wouldn't be a consideration -- it's as adequate as many other service pistols, certainly.
Frankly, the armed forces could do a lot worse. I personally find the M&P to have a few things in its favor over the comparable Glock models, though having invested in the SIG P-320 for personal use, I would, of course, pick a SIG every time ... In the end, though, this type of thread elicits kind of a "who cares?" response for me ... I did my twenty years, and the number of times I knew (which were credible or verifiable) that any service-member had to depend on his issue pistol (not talking any special warfare folks here) to save his bacon kind of renders the whole issue pretty irrelevant (unless, of course, one is a S&W stock-holder ... oh wait, I am! Yikes!).
greyghost01
Member
I have the Glock 35 Gen4 and its the best 40 cal pistol Ive ever shot, My friend owns several Glock 40s including a compensated and this 35 is great 4" at 50 no problem guys are shooting this at 100yds, 16 rnds fully loaded MOS compatible adjustable rear sight, Very nice
This one would be a winner, IMHO
This one would be a winner, IMHO
Old Dog
Member
Wow, I simply cannot explain my apparent willful ignorance then! Having worked for a large law enforcement agency and seen literally hundreds of samples as well as being a firearms instructor, I've guess I've just had my head in the sand (well, mud, really, it is Washington after all). Apparently our officers are much better shots than most ... "Legendary bad accuracy," hee-hee ... you guys crack me up sometimes.
Were you working with the full size 9mm pistol? If so what were your 25 yard groups?
Did you have any of the pistols with the trigger breakage problem?
Did you have any of the pistols with the dead trigger problem?
M+P Magazine Disconnect
My neighbor bought some flavor of M+P, likely 9mm (he's moved, can't verify.)
When I took out the mag and racked the slide back, there was this leetle flimsy piece of metal or WTW-ever sticking out into the magazine well space. It was blue or green as I recall.
I noted that I thought "that part looks awfully flimsy! Would you bet your life on that?"
I believe it was the magazine disconnect, but that was just a guess. It was just sooooooo weak cheese, I was quite frankly, astonished.
I've no doubt that S&W did all manner of testing on this weapon. No doubt at all. But as a mechanical engineer, I was just NOT comfortable with that tiny, tiny little piece of material sticking out there waiting to break off.
HEY! I could be COMPLETELY off base here, but I'm pretty sure it was an M+P, and it looked as though it sensed the presence of the magazine.
THAT being said, I have a serious issue with a mag disconnect. It teaches people to be sloppy. Somebody could remove a mag with a round in the chamber and think the weapon was empty. Somebody puts an empty mag back in and pulls the trigger to release the spring tension (don't YOU do that before storing your auto pistols?) and BLAM! If you are lucky you will only be changing your shorts.
<edit>
My neighbor bought some flavor of M+P, likely 9mm (he's moved, can't verify.)
When I took out the mag and racked the slide back, there was this leetle flimsy piece of metal or WTW-ever sticking out into the magazine well space. It was blue or green as I recall.
I noted that I thought "that part looks awfully flimsy! Would you bet your life on that?"
I believe it was the magazine disconnect, but that was just a guess. It was just sooooooo weak cheese, I was quite frankly, astonished.
I've no doubt that S&W did all manner of testing on this weapon. No doubt at all. But as a mechanical engineer, I was just NOT comfortable with that tiny, tiny little piece of material sticking out there waiting to break off.
HEY! I could be COMPLETELY off base here, but I'm pretty sure it was an M+P, and it looked as though it sensed the presence of the magazine.
THAT being said, I have a serious issue with a mag disconnect. It teaches people to be sloppy. Somebody could remove a mag with a round in the chamber and think the weapon was empty. Somebody puts an empty mag back in and pulls the trigger to release the spring tension (don't YOU do that before storing your auto pistols?) and BLAM! If you are lucky you will only be changing your shorts.
<edit>
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Old Dog
Member
Rx-79G asked
We had a few problems with the .45 ACP pistols in terms of parts breakage.
"Dead trigger" -- no. The original triggers on the 9mms were not that good -- mushy, with some very bad re-set. In the past couple issuances, the triggers are far better with a much more crisp trigger and distinct re-set.
With regard to post #86, no clue what this guy is actually talking about ... he's all over the map. Yeah, he's got no clue himself.
Yes, and the groups weren't the issue, and the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP groups weren't the problem. 4" groups with the 9mm were not normally difficult, it was the trigger originally that was the problem.
We had a few problems with the .45 ACP pistols in terms of parts breakage.
"Dead trigger" -- no. The original triggers on the 9mms were not that good -- mushy, with some very bad re-set. In the past couple issuances, the triggers are far better with a much more crisp trigger and distinct re-set.
With regard to post #86, no clue what this guy is actually talking about ... he's all over the map. Yeah, he's got no clue himself.
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danez71
Member
Can you provide a link to the alleged "multiple recalls"?
I dont see any M&P recalls except for one for the Shield,,,, which is not being discussed here.
I shouldn't have said "recalls", I meant returns. Like Glock, S&W never did a formal recall process for the various reliability problems that they've had with the M&P.
Iowa DPS returned 800 pistols.
Texas DPS returned the first 120 pistols of a new contract, then went to a different gun.
Belgium returned 6000 pistols to S&W for repair for the dead trigger problem:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.2112036 (google will translate)
Iowa DPS returned 800 pistols.
Texas DPS returned the first 120 pistols of a new contract, then went to a different gun.
Belgium returned 6000 pistols to S&W for repair for the dead trigger problem:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.2112036 (google will translate)
danez71
Member
Then I guess glock shouldnt be considered either given the recent recall of the 17M, the infamous recoil spring debacle, the brass to the face extractor issues, the rail related malfunctions, rear frame rail breaking on the 19s, slide protrusion causing unintentional discharges on the 19 and they were replacing frames, the recoil spring over hardened causing breakage .. the list goes on.
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. However, Glock has proved to be able to make their original model G17 Gen2 and 3 very well over the years, while I don't think the M&P9 has ever been exemplary.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Old Dog said:
Hush now, this thread has been inflating my ego. I've been now repeatedly informed that even though I routinely hit an 8" gong at 100 yards off hand, the M&P simply can't do this even from a machine rest... meaning... I'M SUPERMAN!
Don't shatter my illusions.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
pcmacd said:
You are.
The little yellow piece you are talking about is the sear disconnect lever used when taking down the firearm. You can break it off and the gun will still function fine. You will just need to pull the trigger to take it down, like a Glock.
Hangingrock
Member
ClickClickD'oh:
I'll allow that I did get a laugh out of what you've written!
I'll allow that I did get a laugh out of what you've written!
All M&Ps aren't inaccurate. Many M&P9s displayed grossly poor accuracy, but the primary problem is that there is/was so much variation between examples. In other words, it isn't a clearance problem, where a gun is designed to be loose. It is a tolerance problem, where the specs of individual guns varies.
But if your single example means that all the other folks that have had consistent problems are wrong, so be it. I'm sure there are a lot of Pontiac Fieros that never started on fire, either.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
RX-79G said:
That has a lot more to do with Sig being a power house in Texas LEO circles and throwing lots of money at TX DPS, than failing of the M&P. Sig very generously took the offending M&Ps off TX DPSs hands and provided new Sigs in return free of cost... Then a couple of months later had the contract for new P320s as the new standard issue sidearm.
Personally, I don't mind. I think the P320 is a better gun, and I say that having shot a lot of M&P. I think in hindsight it's pretty clear that TX DPS originally wanted to replace the old 226s with modernized Sigs, but the P250 is garbage so they settled for M&Ps.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
RX-79G said:
Well then, let it be a war of singular examples.
I find inaccurate M&Ps on the range all the time. It's amazing how many of them shoot left, low and low left. It's also amazing how many of them shoot point of aim once you fix the student.
I have yet to meet an M&P that can't shoot straight. Doesn't mean I've sampled them all though, so there's probably a few bad apples out there. Also doesn't mean they will be as accurate as custom race guns. They are service pistol accurate for what it's worth. I have yet to see one fail to ring the gong yet. Then again, I saw a Kahr PM9 ring the gong too...
If you want some singulars, here's a lengthy list of them:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2903-Recent-manufacture-M-amp-P-9-accuracy
1 or 2 here:
http://mp-pistol.com/mp-talk/44209-9mm-accuracy.html
Some here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/257866-m-p-9mm-accuracy-issues.html
Trainer Chris Costa raising issues:
http://monderno.com/news/chris-costa-reports-smith-wesson-mp-problem/
Good discussion with more links:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=645960
Larry Vickers:
http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-121518.html
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2903-Recent-manufacture-M-amp-P-9-accuracy
1 or 2 here:
http://mp-pistol.com/mp-talk/44209-9mm-accuracy.html
Some here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/257866-m-p-9mm-accuracy-issues.html
Trainer Chris Costa raising issues:
http://monderno.com/news/chris-costa-reports-smith-wesson-mp-problem/
Good discussion with more links:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=645960
Larry Vickers:
http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-121518.html
Having lived in Italy for quite a while, I can tell you the whole country may be lazy (by frankly unreasonable American standards), but the "crooked" part is unfair. There are a lot of top-notch people living and working there. I wouldn't consider their companies or politicians to be any more crooked than the ones here in the United States.
Acera
Member
Nice links RX-79G, Larry Vickers really does not hold back, LOL.
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