I think you'd find the Italian factory has a lot fewer 'professionals' than you'd expect; I've heard that a huge part of their workforce are classified as 'interns' as a workaround to labor & pay/benefits rules (you have to 'earn' your way into real employment, in other words; maybe even without pay for a period of time). Some article a while back was going on about how a vast number of their corporations --even fairly large ones-- have a nominal staff of exactly fewer than 50 full time employees.the Beretta factory in Italy and the one in Accokeek, MD and both are staffed by pros, but the US one doesn't have 400 Italians taking a nap between noon and 5.
barnbwt said:Now that we've whittled the field down to exactly one gun that actually meets the 'modular' requirement that is in the very name of this dog & pony show (P320), how long do you suppose they're gonna drag out the finals testing so as to squeeze this lemon for all it's worth? You know, before concluding they didn't want lemonade, after all.
You don't have to be a "basher" or "hater" to observe the multiple recalls the M&P has had and the now legendarily bad accuracy the 9mm full sized pistols suffered for nearly a decade.
It takes willful ignorance to miss them.
Were you working with the full size 9mm pistol? If so what were your 25 yard groups?Wow, I simply cannot explain my apparent willful ignorance then! Having worked for a large law enforcement agency and seen literally hundreds of samples as well as being a firearms instructor, I've guess I've just had my head in the sand (well, mud, really, it is Washington after all). Apparently our officers are much better shots than most ... "Legendary bad accuracy," hee-hee ... you guys crack me up sometimes.
Yes, and the groups weren't the issue, and the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP groups weren't the problem. 4" groups with the 9mm were not normally difficult, it was the trigger originally that was the problem.Were you working with the full size 9mm pistol? If so what were your 25 yard groups?
Did you have any of the pistols with the trigger breakage problem?
Did you have any of the pistols with the dead trigger problem?
You don't have to be a "basher" or "hater" to observe the multiple recalls the M&P has had and the now legendarily bad accuracy the 9mm full sized pistols suffered for nearly a decade.
It takes willful ignorance to miss them.
I shouldn't have said "recalls", I meant returns. Like Glock, S&W never did a formal recall process for the various reliability problems that they've had with the M&P.
Iowa DPS returned 800 pistols.
Texas DPS returned the first 120 pistols of a new contract, then went to a different gun.
Belgium returned 6000 pistols to S&W for repair for the dead trigger problem:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.2112036 (google will translate)
I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you. However, Glock has proved to be able to make their original model G17 Gen2 and 3 very well over the years, while I don't think the M&P9 has ever been exemplary.Then I guess glock shouldnt be considered either given the recent recall of the 17M, the infamous recoil spring debacle, the brass to the face extractor issues, the rail related malfunctions, rear frame rail breaking on the 19s, slide protrusion causing unintentional discharges on the 19 and they were replacing frames, the recoil spring over hardened causing breakage .. the list goes on.
Old Dog said:"Legendary bad accuracy," hee-hee ... you guys crack me up sometimes.
pcmacd said:HEY! I could be COMPLETELY off base here,
Hush now, this thread has been inflating my ego. I've been now repeatedly informed that even though I routinely hit an 8" gong at 100 yards off hand, the M&P simply can't do this even from a machine rest... meaning... I'M SUPERMAN!
Don't shatter my illusions.
All M&Ps aren't inaccurate. Many M&P9s displayed grossly poor accuracy, but the primary problem is that there is/was so much variation between examples. In other words, it isn't a clearance problem, where a gun is designed to be loose. It is a tolerance problem, where the specs of individual guns varies.Hush now, this thread has been inflating my ego. I've been now repeatedly informed that even though I routinely hit an 8" gong at 100 yards off hand, the M&P simply can't do this even from a machine rest... meaning... I'M SUPERMAN!
Don't shatter my illusions.
RX-79G said:Texas DPS returned the first 120 pistols of a new contract, then went to a different gun.
RX-79G said:But if your single example means that all the other folks that have had consistent problems are wrong,
I will have to go to another thread to talk about life these last three years in Italy, and the way Italian companies (including gun companies) do business. Short version: The whole country is crooked and lazy.
S&W screwed that gun up - it can be salvaged but having to sink a bunch of money into it to get it right is b%$(%t
S&W allowed their long history of making weak/sub par auto loading pistols get in the way of the gun that could have been a game charger for them; the M&P
In other words they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory
They can't help themselves ; instead of finding a build standard that was a good blend of quality and price they strive 24/7 to find ways to make the guns cheaper and that has all but killed the M&P
But after all what do you expect from a company that still thinks its a good idea to manufacture firearms in Massachusetts ; I rest my case
At one time I saw several in each class - now many shooters have went back to Glock ( which is a sad statement itself based on current issues with Glock pistols )
The S&W shield is a slick gun - and word is they learned from their mistakes with the M&P and have designed it to correct the problems with that line
Time will tell....