Smooooth Triggers....

[JackBauerWannabe]

Yesterday i shot a revolver for the first time, a S&W 357 Magnum. WOW! that thing was so sweet!!! it had an incredibly smooth and consistent DA pull and the SA pull was so crisp, if you breathed on the thing it would shoot.

This got me thinking, has any autoloader been able to make a DA/SA trigger that feels anything close to as awesome as a revolver?? if not, is it possible to customize a trigger system on say, a sig Sauer or a HK to get it to have a hair trigger in SA and a smooth, light, consistent DA?


Sorry i dont have any numbers for the revolver, like trigger pull poundage or even a model name. All i know is that it had wooden grips, it was shiny, like brushed steel or something, and the barrel i estimate to be around 5 inches long. i have no idea why that would help.

 

[MrBorland]

This got me thinking, has any autoloader been able to make a DA/SA trigger that feels anything close to as awesome as a revolver??

I don't know enough about DA/SA triggers to answer your question, but I do think that after a single outing, you may be generalizing about revolver triggers. You may have been shooting a revolver that had an action job done to it, or one that simply came from the factory with a nice trigger, but I wouldn't categorically consider all stock revolver triggers as "awesome".

Glad you enjoyed your first revolver experience, though!

 

[Hawk]

Hmm.

Revolvers, autoloaders and triggers. Pretty much inevitable that Mr. Borland and I would turn up near simultaneously.

I would guess that both your perspective and mine were atypical - your first revolver was evidently molested (or you have a spotted autoloader history). I transitioned from a Dawson/STI SAO to a revolver's double action and didn't have many kind things to say about it - something along the lines of "all revolver DA triggers suck out loud but some suck worse than others".

I've since mellowed as I've grown used to the revolver.

As far as matching the trigger quality of a revolver in SA, most nicer 1911s should fill the bill. In double action only, you may wish to check the SIG DAK - this latter usually runs 6.5 pounds which is difficult to achieve with a revolver while maintaining reliability.


The biggest bugaboo is that there is a significant school of thought that holds that defensive revolvers must be shot double action. Hence you'll be comparing autoloader SAO triggers with revolvers double action triggers. Hardly fair but that's the way of it.

Revolver single action triggers can be a thing of joy but I seldom get to use it - the range babes kick sand in my face and the trainers smirk. Fortunately, I've come to terms with the DA trigger - Mr. Borland knows me from the early days when the road was rough.

"...has any autoloader been able to make a DA/SA trigger that feels anything close to as awesome...

No offense, but that's rich.

On the other hand, there are those that actually prefer a revolvers double action to a 1911s single action trigger. You might be one to join their parade - the last parade was cancelled 'cause one was sick and the other didn't want to march alone.

 

[Ky Larry]

Single action trigger let off is about equal on my Python and my Kimber. My CZ's are okay but not even close to my Python or Kimber. My S&W Model 19 and my -686 aren't as slick as my Python but are very close. The more you shoot them, the better they feel. After shooting a Colt Python, everything else was second best. JMHO. YMMV.

 

[jonnyc]

Mr. Borland is correct. I own 3 revolvers, and their triggers vary WIDELY. My S&W1917 is as smooth as melted butter passed through a goose. The triggers on my Nagant and Enfield, however, are far worse than any on my auto pistols.

 

[raskolnikov_22]

All I can tell you is stay away from the USP unless you want a SAO. Yikes.

Beretta and Sig are decent out of the box. Anything better will require custom work, by C&S for example.

 

[Steve C]

Just about all DA semi's will have a bit of take up on the trigger when shooting in SA mode so you don't get that immediate break on SA mode like you do on a revolver or SA semi auto.

I own and have tried a few DA semi auto's that are equal to the best revolver actions, perhaps a bit better, as they came from the manufacturer. Most will require a trigger job reach their potential.

 

[Oro]

your first revolver was evidently molested

I would disagree. I think a safer assumption is that he shot an S&W with a broken-in trigger. This is the "Zebra rule" a gastroenterologist once taught me. "When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not Zebras." Meaning: the simpler answer is usually the correct one. Assuming that it was altered is a big leap vs. the chances it was just stock.

I think the average S&W trigger once broken in is indeed sweet. Most "action" jobs do little other than just put a ton of wear on the action to "break it in" faster. I have several S&W DA revolver triggers from the factory that are smoother and lighter than some factory 1911 triggers! I would guess you were shooting a K or L frame 357; those are on average lighter than N frame triggers for obvious reasons.

If you really think you want a "sweet" auto trigger, then the path of least resistance is to go to a SA only auto, like a 1911.

 

[jad0110]

On the other hand, there are those that actually prefer a revolvers double action to a 1911s single action trigger.

Count me in. And I have a feeling there are more of us than you think, though granted, most shooters think a light trigger is always a great trigger.

I own both platforms and my favorite is still a decent S&W DA trigger. I just plain shoot them better, though the 1911 isn't far behind. There is something about the extra heft and length of pull of a DA trigger that helps me counter balance for great precision. And the "rythm", for lack of a better term, of shooting a DA revolver matches up better with my personal tastes than the 1911 trigger.

As for my 1911, when I first got it the trigger was fairly light but cruddy overall. Pretty awful actually, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it until I had an action job performed to smooth it out and improve the letoff.

I'd say the best all-around DA trigger I've felt on a semi auto is my father's Kahr K9. Most Kahrs seem to have pretty decent in that regard. A bit more overtravel than I like, but very smooth.

 

[Hawk]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should note that most of my autoloader experience is with STIs. It took a while for me to realize that they were, on average, shipped with better triggers than the average 1911-ish firearm. Hence my perspective is a bit twisted.

The idea that a long, heavy DA revolver trigger could be easier to manage for some is something I take on faith because I respect the speaker's opinion - it's certainly not something I could relate to personally. Double action triggers to me are roughly the same as trying to maintain POA while pull-starting a chainsaw. Basically inconceivable.

Nevertheless, even granting that my bottom feeder trigger experience might have been with above average examples, to proclaim that one went from autoloaders to any revolver to discover the latter's trigger was, to quote the OP, awesome presupposes an exceptional revolver or a background with particularly sorry bottom feeders.

One can't repeal the laws of physics and a trigger which only has to (in the case of DA/SA) cock the hammer/striker will always, all else being equal, be more agreeable than a trigger that has to cock the action and rotate a cylinder.

Of course, all else is not equal but even perfunctory attempts at checking out bottom feeder triggers should yield results that cast the auto in a reasonable light - as opposed to coming in well after an awesome revolver trigger.

Also, my definition of "molested" might be more inclusive than some - I specifically include filed or "backed out" strain screws - something that would comply with Occam's Razor / Zebra laws as it happens not only a lot but occasionally inadvertently.

The OP's impression can only be explained by a singularly impressive revolver or a previous series of especially gawdawful autoloaders, or both.

It might be a minor sore point with me as I took internet backchatter a bit too seriously and bought a Python only to discover that the trigger was, at best, "serviceable". I therefore bought two more Pythons only to discover that the trigger on the first was "as good as it gets". Which isn't saying much at all.

I like and appreciate my revolvers but it's in spite of, rather than because of, their triggers. Revolvers have plenty going for them without pulling stuff from between one's cheeks. "Awesome" triggers belong to select bottom feeders and simply can't be universally usurped until and unless the cylinder rotates by its own. Granted that one could use one's thumb to make the cylinder rotate but then there's the whole range babe issue about single action...

 

[Kind of Blued]

I would disagree. I think a safer assumption is that he shot an S&W with a broken-in trigger. This is the "Zebra rule" a gastroenterologist once taught me. "When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not Zebras." Meaning: the simpler answer is usually the correct one. Assuming that it was altered is a big leap vs. the chances it was just stock.

Occam's Razor says that we don't need a gastroenterologist to develop a story about zebras, horses, and hoofbeats.

 

[chriske]

Re : The Parade of those who actually prefer a revolver DA to a 1911 SA trigger :
(Hawk, MrBorland & jad0110) :
Can I join ?

 

[MrBorland]

I own 3 revolvers, and their triggers vary WIDELY. My S&W1917 is as smooth as melted butter passed through a goose. The triggers on my Nagant and Enfield, however, are far worse than any on my auto pistols.

I have 2 unmolested 3" k-frames. One has the best DA trigger I've ever felt. The other has the worst. From this, I conclude that there's variability even among stock S&W triggers.

I think the average S&W trigger once broken in is indeed sweet. Most "action" jobs do little other than just put a ton of wear on the action to "break it in"

I've read this numerous time before and I've always been suspicious, or at least recognize that there may be limits. When I bought it new, the DA trigger on my 3" M64 felt like a stick being pulled across a picket fence. After tens of thousands of dry fire pulls, it feels like a smoother stick being pulled across smoother pickets. Some triggers may indeed simply need minor smoothing, but others would benefit from real intervention.

I'd certainly hope and expect that an action job, at least one done by a good gunsmith, is more than reproducing the wear done by dry firing. I have a K-22 Masterpiece with an action job done by a good gunsmith. K-22s were renowned for their "smooth" triggers, and this particular example had it's share of "smoothing" when I bought it. Nonetheless, the trigger's much improved and I'm satisfied it was money well-spent.

Re : The Parade of those who actually prefer a revolver DA to a 1911 SA trigger :
(Hawk, MrBorland & jad0110) :
Can I join ?

Sure - glad to have you! We may have to drag Hawk along, though, lest he go AWOL.

 

[Just One Shot]

My striker fired XD's have great triggers, that's one of the reasons I purchased two, a 9mm and a .40!

 

[JackBauerWannabe]

woo thanks for the replys guys!!!

i guess what i really want is an autoloader with a DA/SA trigger that has the first DA pull as smooth and consistent as the stock S&W revolver i shot and then the following SA shots feel similar to the SA pull on the revolver or on some tuned up 1911s. it sounds like you cant really get the best of both worlds here though. either i go with a nice SAO or DAO.

The OP's impression can only be explained by a singularly impressive revolver or a previous series of especially gawdawful autoloaders, or both.

I think you nailed it. the only autoloaders I've shot besides Glocks and XD's (striker-fired) were the Sig P250 and the HK P30L. both of the DA triggers were lousy, but i liked the P30's SA pull.

I guess the closest i can get to my dream pistol is to get a Sig or HK and work on the double action trigger somehow. idk this probably sounds pretty stupid but i really like the option of an external hammer. but XD's do have a beautiful trigger.

its allllll good.

 

[jad0110]

The idea that a long, heavy DA revolver trigger could be easier to manage for some is something I take on faith because I respect the speaker's opinion - it's certainly not something I could relate to personally. Double action triggers to me are roughly the same as trying to maintain POA while pull-starting a chainsaw. Basically inconceivable.

I've got a great article from Guns magazine, dated Nov '57, written by Frank de Haas. In it, Frank states that double action shooting is "the fastest, most accurate, and most natural way to shoot a double action revolver." He goes on to state "Contrary to popular belief, the same shooter with far less training and practice ... shooting double action, can equal or even surpass his single action accuracy, with amazing speed and naturalness."

One of the reasons for this, de Haas claims, is that shooting DA removes much of the anticipation of the hammer falling that causes flinching. "But herein lies the basis of good D.A. shooting: when the trigger is being pulled it must be done in one even motion from start to finish, pulled continually and non-stop. This is all there is to it. The pull is long and you have no notion whatsoever when the gun is going to fire, so there is no chance to flinch or to jerk the trigger."

This makes sense, for me anyway. I find that I anticipate my shots more often when firing SA, or when shooting a SA firearm like a 1911.

Granted, Frank does state that he preferred the older long action S&Ws to the short actions designs because the short action revolvers have a bit stiffer trigger pull.

 

[TheWarhammer]

The closest I've ever found to a "really good DA revolver" trigger pull on an auto pistol is the DAO trigger on Kahrs. Kahr triggers are often compared to well-tuned revolver triggers by gun writers. In fact, the feel of a really good DA revolver was what Justin Moon was going for when he designed the Kahr trigger system. My K40 has the standard trigger, but I added a 5 lb Wolff striker spring. It feels really nice. The Elite trigger has a slightly shorter pull, but still feels nice and smooth.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The German-made "classic" SIG-Sauers I've owned (P220 and P228) had smooth DA and SA triggers, although the DA was a little heavy and there is a long takeup in the SA with a release point very close to the frame, characteristic to the design.

Kahrs have very smooth triggers, but have no SA counterpart, and I would not compare them to a revolver anyway. A revolver trigger has a distinctive feel as the cylinder rolls around and locks; the Kahr pull is the same all the way through until it releases, and you cannot really feel this release point.

 

[sweet45]

The Colt revolvers, especially the Pythons,are absolutely things of beauty, but the older S&W revolvers are known for their sweet triggers stock from the factory. I have a 629 classic from 1990. When I'm in a quiet room and I cock the hammer, I get chills when I hear that crisp multi-click perfection.

 

[chris in va]

I have a 'non-elite' Kahr K9 and the trigger really impresses me. Supposedly the Elite version is even smoother.

It's like a highly lightened, shorter revolver pull with no cylinder lockwork clicking. IIRC it's somewhere around 5-7# pull.

 

[chriske]

jad0110 :
Apart from "one even motion from start to finish, pulled continually and non-stop", I would add that trigger RELEASE in exactly that same way is equally important.
For me at least it is :
I often get better results from my 2nd to 6th shot than from my 1st, because of just that.
I even sometimes cheat by shooting 5-shot strings where I DA-cycle the first chamber empty, just to get that smooth release before the second trigger pull.



(P.S. : Mr Borland: "smoother stick over smoother pickets" : LOL !)

 

[Radagast]

For a Double Action/Single Action auto pistol with a smooth light double action and a light crisp single action, I suggest you look at a CZ SP01 Shadow tuned by Angus Hobdell of www.ghostholster.com He is a CZ sponsored world class IPSC shooter and a CZ USA gunsmith.
A few of my friends have shot his guns at international matches and bought parts from him. They are all very impressed with his workmanship, his ability to drink and his command of foul language. As we are Australians, this is high praise indeed.

 

[searcher451]

I would not trade my Walther P5 for any revolver on the market, but that's just me. You want to talk about a great trigger ... just give a P5 a run at the range. It's as good as it gets, IMO.