sniper school recreated

[jhco]

ok please be kind as this may sound dumb to some of you but i was watching a program about the marines sniper training and they shoot 308 at 600meters or yards
i would like to create somthing like this at my range but we only have a 200yrd range and i dont have a 308 so heres what i am thinking a 17hmr at 100-200yrds on a scaled down target of a human silhouette my question is; what do you think and how big should the target be i was thinking it sould be 1/6 of the size if i shoot at 100yrds
let me know

 

[Bartkowski]

I don't know but logical thinking makes me want to say 1/6th.

Remember though, it won't be as difficult as 600meters because you don't have to take into account wind as much. (maybe you do since you are shooting a .17hmr).

 

[jhco]

good call, i think at 100 wind wont be as much of a factor as at 150 - 200

 

[Avenger29]

I don't know about the sizes, but I know that many "sniper schools" use .22 rifles at 200 yards, using low power scopes and smaller targets to replicate the distances (I've heard it called the "1000 inch" range instead of the "1000 yard" range)...

And, I'd go with .22LR if you have a nice .22 rifle simply because of the ammo costs. If you are serious about marksmanship, then .22LR is the way to go.

And, no I don't think this is a dumb idea. This is a very smart idea if you want to learn to shoot at longer ranges...stretching the .22LR past 100 yards really helps you learn...

 

[jhco]

by low power what do you mean? that sounds interesting

 

[jhco]

i just figured the sizes and it would be 4x7.5 at 100 or almost the size of a sheet of paper at 200 this seems pretty big to me

 

[Avenger29]

As in 2x and 4x power scopes...those are usually considered "Low Power".

just figured the sizes and it would be 4x7.5 at 100 or almost the size of a sheet of paper at 200 this seems pretty big to me

Start with that size, and maybe you can work your way down later to smaller...stuff like index cards, etc...

 

[jhco]

wow, that is low power

 

[VA27]

25 meters is the thousand inch range.

I made reduced targets for using with CB caps out to a hundred yards. The silhouette 4.125" tall and 2" wide. At 10 yards it looks like a full sized target at a hundred. At 100 yards it looks like it's at a thousand...or at least it looks close enough.

It's fun!

 

[jbech123]

As some people alluded to, there are factors that make it different, i.e wind. For example, the effect of wind is different even though relative target size is consistent. At a real 1000yd range, there is a greater chance of different winds at different points along the course, heck the wind where you are sitting could be 2mph E->W, and 1000yds away 9 mph SE->NW. Much less likely to be different if your target is 25yards away.
All that said this is still a great idea. Hitting a 1" circle every time at 100 yds with 17hmr does not guarantee you could hit a 10" circle every time with a .308 at 1000. However, very few people are set up to shoot, especially with any regularity, at 1000(or even 600.) So a range setup as you describe, that you actually utilized several times a week, would improve your overall marksmanship considerably.

 

[kBob]

jhco,

Been a while since I shot on the FIsh & Game range at Lake city, but I recall an agrovating .22LR "Silly-wet" shoot there where the targets beyound the block wall were a pain because wind did effect them.

A couple of years back I took a class from Major EJ Land (I assume that if USMC sniper training is of interest to you that you know who he is)and in one of the slack times, lunch or something, he was telling me that he had some of his competitor and or Snipers use the .22LR as an aid to training at lesser ranges such as 200 and 300 yards/meters. Told me the rainbow trajectory of the .22LR at those ranges and the way those bullets got pushed around by the wind when hanging that long was pretty decent training for long range shooters when there were not longer ranges available.

Just for giggles get some of the 600 yard subtense targets for use at 100 yards. That teeny tiny 10 ring will agrovate the dickens out of you.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[rangerruck]

basically 1 ft tall, 6 inches wide.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Anyone else remember this article by Peter Capstick?


Mini Sniping.

 

[rangerruck]

then you make concentric circles in the chest area, with a very small x, and a couple of circles, with an x in the head.

 

[Medusa]

.22LR behind the 100m lane. it's interesting, I've shot 175m so far, at a head sized target, with 4x scope. Wind is a major factor, especially when using subsonic ammo. The flight time to 200m is a sec and more, thus replication longer ranges for centerfires pretty well.

But actual shooting is only 1/3 of the art of sniping.

 

[jhco]

But actual shooting is only 1/3 of the art of sniping

very true

dave that was an interesting article thank you

 

[boilingleadbath]

Well, there are three challenges that the range offers which would have to be represented on your mini-range.

1) Angular size of the target.
This is easy, just shrink the target porportionally. 36" target @ 600 yards = 6" target at 100 yards.

2) Drop of the bullet.
Unfortunately, angular drop is (roughly) proportional to Distance/Cartridge_Velocity. We don't actually care about the total drop in inches, just the drop in miliradians/moa.
I'm not certain that drop matters for a training exercise meant to simulate know distance targets, though. That's a personal call, I suppose.

3) Wind drift of bullet.
Again, angular deflection is roughly proportional to Distance/Velocity.

**********

So, essentially, I see two levels of realism that your miniature range can offer:

1) Reduced size targets only. That is, shoot 1/6th sized targets at 1/6th the range, so that they look the right size.
This is what I do most of the time - 1/5th, 1/10th, 1/15th, 1/20th, 1/25th size targets shot at 20 yards to simulate targets at ranges from 100-500 yards, though I actually simulate very tall 12" cylinders, not human torsos.

1b) Target sizes reduced so that wind compensation is just as important as it would be at your desired range.
For instance, wind drift of 308@600 yards@5mph@9o'clock is roughly 16", or .8 times the width (broadside) of a human torso. So you scale your targets at 100 yards so that the wind drift of your bullet (1.36"@5mph?) carries it .8 times the width of the target.
Which means you make some targets which are 1.7" wide. IIRC, that's just about the diameter of a paper towel roll.
Unfortunately, 1.7*6=10.2, so your targets are a bit harder to see and point at than a human at 600 yards.

2) Scale your range to the ballistic performance of the cartridge.
For .17HMR, that would mean...
155 yards, if data (MVs, Bcs, calculations) from "Remington Shoot!", Varmin Al's (MVs, BCs), and "Point Blank" (calculations) can be trusted.

Which doesn't seem quite right, but whatever.

I used data for a 165 grain .308 bullets: Bc of .475 @ 2700 fps.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Good thread.