Snubby ammo confusion!

[Kimdo]

Snubbie ammo confusion!
I just purchased a .38spl snubbie for carry use and started looking for info on PD ammo. Then comes the confusion.
Ammolab.com showns no load that expands much from a snubbie no matter what the penetration. (Standard gel test.)
The article in "Guns & Ammo 2004 Annual" has test results done by DVC Labs which show a totally different picture. In this test there are several PD rounds that exhibit both good expansion and penetration.
Is there something that I am missing here?
Although I sincerely hope I never have to shoot anything but my usual paper plates, I still prefer to carry the very best just in case. Any suggestions from the experts on this subject? (Currently loaded with Speer Gold Dot JHP 125gr. +P)
Thanks, Kim
ps. Apologies for posting this in the 3" thread. I was trying to start a new thread and now I can't deleat the screwup. (computer illiterate and regretting it)

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. It appears that few if any JHP or lead hollow point loads (std pressure or +P) expand in gelatin after passing through 4-layers of denim. Thus, some say that since one's not getting expansion, he should go with the standard wadcutter load. My snub's loaded with Remington 158-gr LSWCHP +P. If my opponent is not wrapped up like a tamale in 4 layers of denim, it might just work very well if I do my part. It might not. Expect any handgun round NOT to stop instantly even with a well-centered chest hit. I'll take my chances with a round that might expand under some scenarios than one that will not under any. That said, there are better choices in defensive calibers and handguns, but I find the J-frame very convenient and something that is with me 24/7, whether or not there's a larger carry gun on my person.

Best.

 

[fourdeuce82d]

"Expect any handgun round NOT to stop instantly even with a well-centered chest hit'

not an expert, but that's what I've come away with. Multiple hits, quickly...and the grace of God.

 

[Jim March]

I think Ammolabs went just a wee bit nuts with the demin, myself. One layer, sure, maybe two...but four?



I have a 38snub. I trust the Winchester and Remington 158+P lead hollowpoints (due to it's LONG record), the Winchester 130 Supreme +P (both because of test results, and the enormous size of the JHP cavity) and the Gold Dot 125+Ps (based on test results and the credibility of Proload, Black Hills and Georgia Arms, all of which use them).

 

[zeke]

Am always trying to remember the differences in climate across the country. While 4 layers of denim may seem a little on the conservative side, up here in the fall and winter it is likely people who spend anytime outside will have more layers of clothes (included one or more heavily insulated layers). The use of a more retictive standard of testing may help in giving incentive for newer bullet designs that consistently expand.

While concealed carry ain't legal up here yet (currently ther is a "personal protection" bill proposed), am sticking with the old Federal 158 plus p swchp Nyclad. It might not expand, but should offer sufficient penetration and is very accurate from 638.

 

[Obiwan]

1. Hit what you aim at

2. Repeat as required

And bullet performance will be secondary

But the .38 has not had much attention paid it in terms of bullet design in the last 10 -20 years. Mr. Camps suggestion is one of the best.

 

[Quantrill]

I have heard from at least 2 reputable sources just to use 148gr wadcutters loaded to top pressure for whatever snub. Personally, I use Keith/Lyman #358429 SWC loaded with 2400 to the top pressure allowed in whatever snub. Quantrill

 

[Old Fuff]

When a hollow point bullet is fired through several layers of clothing, particularly the heavy kind, the bullet's nose cavity may fill with cloth and thereafter expansion is unpredictable. In some cases it may implode and not expand at all.

Too many people are trying to find a "magic bullet" that will always perform as it should regardless of the conditions. There is no such thing. While today's cartridges/bullets are much improved from what they were I have observed that an awful lot of people got killed before this modern stuff came on the market. Of course some also took a bunch of hits and survived the effects of a lead/round nosed slug. The difference was because of bullet placement, not expansion.

Today's high-performance ammunition woun't buy you zip - unless the slug hits something serious in the way of a major organ. A similar hit (either way) with a less effective bullet will likely have the same effect. In a gunfight many, many factors may come into play, but the winner is usually which one makes the first EFFECTIVE hit. That has everything too do with marksmanship skills under pressure, and much less too do with bullet design.

 

[WT]

I believe New York City's premier civilian gunfighter, Bernie Goetz, got 4 - one shot stops with his Model 60 snubby using 158 gr semi-wadcutter (non-hollowpoint) bullets.

 

[45crittergitter]

From a snub, I far prefer a 158 gr LSWHP, preferably Cor-Bon or Federal Nyclad (also the 125 Nyclad)

The Marshall/Sanow stopping percentage on the Cor-Bon 158 from a 2" is estimated at 80%.

 

[RWK]

Kim,

In my opinion, you have the benefits of several true, world-class experts' comments on your topic; men like my Steve Camp, Jim March, and Old Fluff really know what they are talking about.

I will add my lees-knowledgeable opinion. First and most important, is ACCURATE SHOT PLACEMENT. Given that imperative, I would personally favor either a top-quality, +P, 158 grain, LSWCHP (due to its long-proven defensive record) or any top-quality +P load with a Gold Dot projectile.

I would also suggest that you shoot at least 50 -- 100 would be better -- rounds of your defensive carry ammunition choice to ensure both that it functions perfectly (should be no problem) and that it HITS PRECISELY with YOUR weapon. If it does not, switch to another load, meeting the above criteria, until you find one that flawlessly passes these tests.

Regards.

 

[Keith]

I quit worrying much about ammo a long time ago.

I use Hydra-Shoks. If they expand, great! A hollowpoint (when it works) makes a bigger wound cavity.
If they don't expand, they become effectively; FMJ's - which give better penetration...

I used to obsess about this stuff, switching loads based on the latest test or theory. Now, I just put the front sight on the steel plate and keep pulling the trigger... gong, gong, gong, gong!

Keith

 

[Dr.Rob]

I thought Goetz used a 22?

Who knew?

 

[Old Fuff]

>> I thought Goetz used a 22? <<

Nope, he had a 5-shot .38 Special S&W J-frame. most likely a model 36.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

I carry the RBCD .38 Special Tactical. It is a 50 gr bullet rated at 1850 fps. The standard .38 Special is a 60 gr. slug at 1705 fps. I do not know the barrel length on the Tactical, but the standard .357 mag is making 1975 fps out of a 2.75" barrel. The slugs are not hollow points having a round nose profile and all are loaded to standard pressures.

www.rbcd.net

 

[AUTIGER04]

I load mine with 125 grain SJHPs.

 

[JPM70535]

Old fart that I am, I still use the old reliable WW 125 gr. STHP (silvertip)
Even if it fails to expand, at close range the flame from the barrel will inflict 2nd and 3rd degree burns. And let us not forget the one thing that sets STs from all the others, You can't beat them for dealing with WEREWOLVES!