So haw many hot .357 loads will erode the forcing cone of a 66

[flip180]

Alright, I've have searched high and low and found that this seems to be a problem with the K-frames. As you all know I have a 2.5in. model-66 that I plan using for carry but am trying to decide on a carry round. I'm leaning toward a 125gr SJHP Remington due to it being able to achieve higher velocities (1240 fps) out of the shorter bbl. I would like to try out heavier bullets in the 148-158 gr. range but would like to see what kinds of speeds they would obtain out of the short 2.5in bbl. Im getting the impression that it doesn't take very many rounds of 110-125 gr. to damage the forcing cone or, is it more like several hundred perhaps thousands to actually do some damage. I plan on loading my own range ammo which will consist of a mix of .38 and .357 cases loaded with Titegroup powder and topped off with 158 gr. cast lead bullets. This mix will comprize a majority of what this revolver will see but, I think that a faster 125 gr. will be the ticket for carry. Of course I'll need to shoot that round to get familiar with it but, I don't want to damage the gun in doing so.

Robert.

 

[sgt127]

If you do a search...you'll see alot of threads about this. Either the forcing cone/top strap/gun shot loose w/magnums.

From what I have seen, assuming your gun is new or near new, it will take a minimum of 1000 rounds of factory hot .357 before you will notice any wear. It might be 100...it might be 10,000. But, my experience, from my guns and alot of others I've handled, the average shooter will not wear out a K frame with magnums. This topic is about the same as "9mm or .45 for self defense?" There are no absolutes. Good luck.

 

[flip180]

I've searched alot and,,,,,,

those numbers you listed were probably the most specific I've seen. This gun won't see THAT many hot loads but enough to keep proficient with. Kinda like my 642. It shoots mainly range ammo but, I'll put a cylinder or two of the +P's through it now and then to keep familiar with how they shoot. I bought this gun used so, I don't know it's round count and types of rounds through it. I assume it must not be too much due to the condition of the gun overall.

Thanks, Robert.

 

[stans]

My 19-3 showed signs of forcing cone erosion after 300 rounds of Winchester 110 grain JHP ammo.

 

[tex_n_cal]

When the Model 19/66 first came out, .357's were loaded hotter than they are nowdays. Unless you plan on handloading some Elmer Keith Commemorative loads, I would not worry about it.

 

[Old Fuff]

flip180:

Quite frankly, I suspect if you have to ever shoot anyone, which in itself is highly unlikely, your intended target won't give a zip about what the muzzle velocity of the bullet that hit him was. If this truly worries you, you need to get a revolver with a longer then 2 1/2 inch barrel.

Some light-bullet/high-velocity loads cause gas cutting around the topstrap and the barrel's throat. In this instance the kind of powder seems to make the difference, as some burn at higher heat then others.

What you really want to strive for is the ability to hit precisely where you want to, while recovering quickly so that accurate follow-up shots can follow if they are necessary. If a slightly heavier bullet is moving a bit slower it won't make any practical difference at all.

 

[HSMITH]

What Fuff said, and I'll add my observations.

My M19 beater has over 25K rounds through it, and around 5000 of them are magnums, and all but a couple hundred of those are 125 grain magnums. Around 1000 of them are nasty mean vile boomers that you can't buy under a buck each ala Buffalo Bore, there is NO more performance available as these are true maximum loads in every sense. My forcing cone shows some erosion, the top strap shows some cutting. SO WHAT!!! I don't care, not in the least. If it breaks I will fix it and continue shooting until it breaks again. If the forcing cone gets a little too beat up you set the barrel back two turns and re-cut the forcing cone. WALLLA!!!! Like it has never been shot, and about $100 cost. Top strap erosion is a non-issue, it will progress to a certain point and then it will not get any worse no matter how many more rounds you shoot. You will never weaken the gun in any way with topstrap erosion.

I have several K-frames with many thousands through them and some in my family with lots more through them than my guns. None of us has ever had a problem. The police department and sherriffs office I was involved with had several dozen K's in the field and no problems at all. There were guns with constant problems but they were not K-frame Smiths.

The real issue that isn't internet ninny myth is the forcing cone splitting. This has happened in the past and will happen in the future. It is my opinion that the guns that split the forcing cone had barrel to cylinder alignment issues and that causes the pounding of the forcing cone in one area rather than over the circumference. The forcing cone on the .357 bore barrel K-frames is somewhat thin, and it is thinner at the bottom. If your barrel is high or the cylinder is low, or if even one charge hole is low the bullets will pound the forcing cone right on the weakest point, the bottom. Most splits are at the bottom. It is my opinion that a simple check with a match range rod will identify any alignment issues and determine whether you need to worry about this or if you can blast on happily without any worries. Any decent wheelgun smith will have a range rod and will probably check your gun free or for a small fee.

Just my opinion based on my experience, hope it helps.

 

[Jim March]

I think it's also worth questioning the conventional wisdom that ALL of your practice should be with carry-load-level horsepower.

I just don't think so...because in a REAL fight, your perceptions of recoil will be completely different from at the range anyways.

I believe at least 80% of your practice can be 38Spl target-grade fodder, reserving a cylinder full of carry load-level stuff for the end of each session.

If this is the case, then one goal is to find two loads: practice and carry, that each print to about the same place. To get really trick, pick three loads for a 357 gun: practice, a strong 38+P indoor defense load for those times when you don't want Magnum-level NOISE, and a full-on Magnum carry load for when appropriate.

In all cases, the trend is that loads of the same weight will print about the same place without sight adjustments...although it can be "ballparked" (usually) to where as long as it's close and as long as you're not practicing past 25 yards. In other words, a 130 38Spl practice load, 135 38+P defense and 125 357 should be OK, although test it all of course .

Another combo: 148 or 158 38 practice, 158spl lead wadcutter hollowpoint +P for the mid-range, 158 Gold Dot 357 for the hardcore hitter.

One last point: when Bufallo Bore's 38Spl+P 158 lead hollowpoint at 1,000fps from a 2" barrel ships with over 350ft/lbs energy on tap, that will very effectively "bridge the gap" between 357s and 38+P, and are an obvious contender for those with steel-frame snubbies of any sort. Georgia Arms has a dirt-cheap reload version of the same slug, not as fast but available in bulk for equivelent practice for the pricier BB version.

 

[flip180]

Thanks for the info everybody.

I really like this 66 even though I haven't shot it yet. It balances alot better than my 4in GP100 which I'm keeping as a test gun for my reloads and for just plane old range use. I was kind worried about the longevity of this gun based on what I've read here on the board. I passed up a really nice 686 2.5in bbl. last week and, I was almost wishing I would have bought that instead but not now. I have always liked the snubbie 66's and the 19's. I have also read that it can be repaired if it brakes just like HSMITH pointed out which, gives me more confidence in the longevity of the gun. 100.00 doesn't sound unreasonable for a refurbishment of the gun. I have a chrono on the way and will probably head out to the range with different types of defensive .357 rounds with varying weights and even some hot +P .38 loads and see how they stack up.

Thanks, Robert.

 

[Jim March]

Keep this in mind:

Bullet shape and design matters almost as much as raw energy. Look at the shapes on some of the better 38+P JHPs, like the 135 Speer and 130 Winchester Supreme +P. HUGE freakin' hollowpoints...these rounds were "revolver only" from day one, ZERO "feed ramp compromise" involved. Speer's test data shows it'll open up at around 850fps or so, and punch 12" while doing it. If that pans out with independent testing, then...heck, what more do you really need, if you do your part?

 

[flip180]

I thought about those.

As a matter of fact, I have my 642 loaded up with them right now. I also have a few Remington 158gr+P LSWCHP sitting around also. The only thing is that if I use one of those two rounds in the 66 , I might as well carry my 642. I wonder if speer will put that bullet in a .357 magnum load.

Robert

 

[Jim March]

Speer already has a good Gold Dot load tuned for 357s.

It's 158 grains though.

I would strongly recommend chrony testing the Gold Dot 158 as loaded by Georgia Arms, Proload, Black Hills and/or Speer from your 2.5" - 3" barrel 357. If you're getting 1,150 - 1,200fps then that's a VERY good contender as your carry load.

Your "next step down" at the same point of aim would be any of the 38+P 158 lead hollowpoints...Winchester or Remington for mild, BufBore for relatively stout (but still 38+P) or old-stock Cor-Bon now out of production but near the BuffBore's power level.

Then 38 158grain practice loads are common, and the 148s will probably print pretty close without sight adjustments out to 25 yards, maybe more.

Lookit: the 357 magnum caliber was originally designed for a 6" - 8" barrel. Now 4" is the most common. Go seriously below that though, down to 2", and you WILL lose velocity and you might drop down below the speeds the rounds are designed to work at. That's a problem, m'kay? 3", you're probably still in good shape. But a case can be made that 357s below THAT, or even 4", are...maybe not optimal. Not unusuable, but you better do some chrony checking and make sure you're still within your load's performance envelope...and preferrably at least 50fps above the floor. The Gold Dot 158's floor is 1,100fps.

Cor-Bon's 125grain full-house 357 combat load is one critter that does seem to be working out of short tubes though. I've seen reports of them clocked at just a hair under 1,400 from a Ruger SP101 2" barrel. If you can't find anything else, this is a hot ticket.

 

[flip180]

Thanks Jim.

I looked around on the internet and found that I can order most of those rounds but, not from the same place. I'll probably order them next week. My chrono won't be in until later next week (hopefully ). I'd like to see if the 66 will push a 158 gr. bullet and even a 145gr. Winchester silvertip in the 1100-1200 FPS range.

Robert.

 

[Jim March]

My opinion: the Georgia Arms version of the 158 Gold Dot 357 is *maybe* going to be the hottest flavor of those available. It's the one I'd place my bets on, of the four I know.

It's also the cheapest, esp. if you buy in the 100-pack .

 

[flip180]

Jim

I orderded a couple of boxes of the Corbon 140gr. to try out. I've seem a member here on the board clocked them out of a 2-1/4in SP101 at 1225 fps. I'll chrono them and do some exspansion testing (water jugs ) and see how they do.

Robert.