So, Just what CAN the '06 do with Heavy Bullets?

[USSR]

Around about the millenium, I became interested in taking a cartridge that was nearly 100 years old, and using newly developed powders and the best match bullets available, seeing just what the cartridge was capable of. I had Jack Krieger build the rifle to my specs, which are listed below:

Winchester M70 Pushfeed Action
Fluted 26" Krieger MTU Contour Barrel
McMillan A2 Stock, Pillar Bedded
Williams One-Piece Steel Bottom Metal
Jewell Trigger
Speed Lock Firing Pin and Spring
Badger 20MOA Base and Rings
Leupold 6.5-20x50LR M1 Mildot Scope



Unbeknown to me, another shooter (Shane) had the very same idea, and was experimenting with heavy bullet loads at the same time. The 190 grain Sierra MatchKing was the bullet that started both our load development efforts, as I recall. I also recall alot of disbelief from alot of guys on the website we frequented (SnipersHide.com), but after several other guys started duplicating our loads and got the same results, it became simply common knowledge among the posters on that site. I have pretty much remained with the 190SMK, along with some work with Hornady's excellent 178gr Amax bullet, while Shane has done ALOT of load development with bullets even heavier than 190 grains. As for my load development, I started with 2 slow burning powders: H4831 and RL22. It quickly became obvious that H4831 was not going to give me the velocity I had hoped for. Reloader 22, on the other hand, gave spectacular performance. Below are the loads that I use. Of course, anyone trying to duplicate this performance should start with lower charge weights and work up to it as I did. Although, Alliant lists a 60gr load for the 190SMK bullet, so it is not necessary to go too low.

190SMK
Lapua or LC Match brass
Fed 210M primer
60.7gr RL22
3.315" COAL
2900fps

178gr Amax
Lapua or LC Match brass
Fed 210M primer
60.0gr N160
3.480" COAL
2950fps

I am sure there are others out there that have done load development with heavy bullets in the .30-06, so feel free to post your results.

Don

 

[barnetmill]

USSR: What is the rifling twist of your rifle. This is what is most important for heavy bullets. 1 in 10 used to standard in the 30-06 and is good for 190 bullets. I turn in 12 inches might not work well. 190 grains is not especially heavy. They are long. 220 is the heavest commercial load. The 300 whisper uses 250 grain bullets with I think a 1 in 8 twist. I noticed that you do have very high velocities. Your velocities are in the same ballpark with what what hornardy gets for their 30-06 SPRG 180 GR BTSP LIGHT MAGNUM where they get 2913 ft per sec. Hornady uses special powders and they have devices that measure pressure.

Have fun, monitor your pressures, wear OSHA approved safety glasses, and wear kevlar gloves if you insist on pushing the envelope.

Best luck.

 

[paintballdude902]

what kind of groups are you getting?

thats awsome man keep up the good work and be safe

 

[VSP968]

The .30-06 has become an often overlooked cartridge....

I run 190SMK's out of my .30-06. Here's my 190 load:

Lapua brass neck sized w/.335 bushing
210M primer
59.0Gr RL22
COAL 3.291
Ogive 2.702

HI 2773
LO 2736
AV 2759
ES 36.11
SD 11.32

300'ASL
55F

I am an RSO for Range 4 @ Quantico and have the opportunity to use this 1000yd range a couple of times a month. This load will run to 1K w/ 33MOA.

Here's the rifle; it's not your typical '06:

Rem700 L/A
PTG bolt
Shillen 1-10 25"
AICS 1.5
Jewell trigger
Badger 20MOA base and rings
Badger FTE muzzle brake
Leupold MkIV M1 8.5-25X50

I've also run 178AMAX's under 57.0gr of IMR4350 in LC MATCH brass:

Runs 12.75MOA to 600yds

COAL 3.294
Ogive 2.664

HI 2914
LO 2857
AV 2883
ES 56.14
SD 16.76

300'ASL
55F

I really built this rifle to shoot 208AMAX's....I run 60gr of RL22 w/ the same components as the 190SMK load above:

COAL 3.410
Ogive 2.688

HI 2854
LO 2799
AV 2824
ES 55.46
SD 15.74

300'ASL
85F

This load also runs 21.5MOA @ 800, 25.5MOA to 900 and 30.5MOA to 1K and shot well enough for me to place fifth out of thirty in an open F class match @ Quantico..

Al

 

[USSR]

barnetmill,

It's a 1-10" twist. I debated for a LONG time about getting a 1-11" twist, but finally opted for the standard twist. There is no problem using a 1-12" twist with the 190SMK's. I shot the 190SMK's out of my 1-12" twist .308 all the time. It's just another of those Internet fables that bullets are extremely finicky about rifling twist, atleast in .30 caliber.

paintballdude902,



Don

 

[Shane in MT]

Just to say hello to the forum, and share some of my findings with the 30-06.

Back in 2000 I finished a custom built 30-06 project. Don and I didn't even know each other then, but have come to know each other in cyberland. It was surprising how similar our rifles are.

Mine is
M700 LH
26" Douglas #7 bbl (later cut to 22")
McMillan A2 stock
Leupold MK4 16X scope
Badger bling all around


I'm loading mostly 190-210gr, over RL22, but have also played with 240gr SMKs, and 110 VMax and 155 Scenar, over RL15.

Getting all the performance out of the case is really no mystery. It's as simple as maximizing the case volume with the right powder.

For reference, approximate volumes depending on type of brass:

308 Win, 56-58 gr water
30-06 Spr, 68-72 gr water
300 WinMag, 86-92 gr water

Since port pressure is a non-issue in a M700, it is not a problem to fill that case up with a slow enough powder to get to about 60-62K pressure, at 100-105% load density. And that is all we are doing.

An essential part of our load development has been to measure the actual volume of the brass we are using, it makes a big difference. I've measured a few different 30-06 cases and find that Winchester and Norma brass has the most volume, so that is my preference. I also use moly on the bullets to reduce friction.

My favorite load to date is:
Norma 30-06 brass, fireformed/neck-sized
208 Hornady AMax, moly'd
61gr RL22
CCI 200 primer
3.45" oal (kisses lands)
2700 fps (22.4" bbl)
2800 fps (26" bbl)

Absolutly no indicators of excess pressure. QL calcs pressure at 60-62K, and velocity lines up with that. Considering that Norma brass is notoriously soft, and I have put nearly 4000 rounds through 100 pieces (neck sizing with Lee Collet Die), without loose primer pockets or measureable web expansion, I feel very safe with this load.

The 30-06 splits the difference between the 308, and 300 WinMag, in both case volume, and velocity potential. It doesn't equal the larger magnum because it simply doesn't have the cubic inches to do so at equal pressure.

Modern software has opened my eyes to ways to maximize modern powders to take full advantage of the case, and that's what I do.

A few of my load notes:


30-06 Reload Data

22.4" bbl

------------------------------------------------------------------
Hornady 110gr V-Max, moly'd
Brass: Norma
OAL 3.20"
Reloader-15
63 gr - 3570 fps
------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnes 130gr TTSX, moly'd
Brass: Norma
OAL: 3.26"
Reloader-15
59.0 gr - 3195 fps
60.0 gr - 3255 fps
61.0 gr - 3315 fps
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Lapua 155gr Scenar, moly'd
Brass: Norma
OAL: 3.30" (3.35" OAL kisses lands, 15Feb08)
Reloader-15
57 gr - 3030 fps
58 gr - 3110 fps
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Sierra 190gr Matchking
Brass: Norma
OAL: 3.34"
RL15
50gr - 2560 fps (50K pressure, accurate/mild)
51gr - 2605
52gr - 2650
53gr - 2690

Hornady 208gr AMax, moly'd
Brass: Norma
OAL: 3.46" (3.47" OAL kisses lands, 15Feb08)
CCI-200 primer
Reloader-22
60 gr - 2660 fps - 57K psi
61 gr - 2710 fps - 62K psi
62 gr - 2765 fps - 66K psi
63 gr - 2800 fps - 70K psi, flattening primer
64 gr - 2850 fps - 74K psi, flattening primer, brass flow in ejector, .002" web expansion
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Berger 210gr VLD, moly'd
Brass: Norma
OAL: 3.34" (3.41" OAL kisses lands, 15Feb08)

Reloader-22
60 gr - 2620 fps
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sierra 240gr Matchking
OAL: 3.25"
Brass: Remington
Reloader-22
56.0gr - 2520

 

[Shane in MT]

A recent pic after cutting, braking, painting. Also a few targets illustrating typical accuracy.









Bottom center, 210 Bergers

 

[jpwilly]

Nice rifles and great load info. You guys shoot in any competitions?

 

[barnetmill]

USSR: "It's a 1-10" twist. I debated for a LONG time about getting a 1-11" twist, but finally opted for the standard twist. There is no problem using a 1-12" twist with the 190SMK's. I shot the 190SMK's out of my 1-12" twist .308 all the time. It's just another of those Internet fables that bullets are extremely finicky about rifling twist, atleast in .30 caliber.

paintballdude902,"

The claim of rifling twists on accuracy predates the internet by many years. You do show absolute proof that 1 in 12 twists will group at 100 yards. Do you or anyone else have any informaton on longer ranges. I have a .308 on a mauser action with a 1/12 twist that I want to shoot with some longer bullets and would greatly appreciate any information that readers of this thread can offer.

I do own several 30-06 rifles and also .308 rifles. I perfer the 06 my thinking is that it is more flexible and safer to use for reloading due to the larger volume than the .308.

 

[Art Eatman]

For a bunch of years my pet '06 has been a Weatherby Mark V with the "#2 profile" barrel, 26". Back when my eyes were better, I commonly got five-shot groups of 3/4 MOA; ten-shot groups of 1-1/8 MOA. For 150-- and 165-grain hunting loads I always used the same 4064 data that I started with way back when.

I've managed groups around one MOA or better at 500, and then started messing with the Sierra 180-grain SPBT GameKing. I also tried H414. Lo! And Behold! 0.4 MOA at 100 yards! I figured that wasn't bad, after some 4,000-ish rounds through the old gun.

If there's a point to this, I guess that it's a question as to whether anybody has tried the H414 with 190-ish grain bullets? (I've yet to try the RL powders.)

 

[USSR]

Art,

Never used H414. I see from looking at a burn rate chart, that it is even faster than Hodgdon's H4350. We are using powders that are considerably slower. But, hey, if you find a good shooting load and don't mind running slower with it.

barnetmill,

Yes, I realize that the Greenhill formula predates the internet, but what happens is, guys think that there is no "wiggle room" as far as twist rate goes. What the Greenhill formula does is calculate the theoretical optimal twist, and gives you no idea as to how far each way from the optimal will stabilize the bullet. As far as shooting a 1-12" .308 with 190gr bullets, I can tell you that VihtaVouri N550 is THE powder for this load. With the 26" barrel on my FN SPR, I can easily reach 2700fps and remain within pressure specs. Here is my load:

Hornady Match brass
Fed 210M primer
190SMK bullet
47.0gr N550 powder

You need to use lightweight brass with a large case capacity like Winchester or Hornady Match to get that much powder in a .308 case.

Don

 

[Art Eatman]

USSR, thanx. I was curious mostly because of the better group size with the H414 vice 4064.

Separately, of minor interest, on my 500-yard range I found my loads with Sierra 150-grain SPBT, 165-grain HPBT and the 180-grain SPBT to have nearly the same trajectory. No change in sight-in, no change in POA. Very close to same POI.

 

[USSR]

...on my 500-yard range I found my loads with Sierra 150-grain SPBT, 165-grain HPBT and the 180-grain SPBT to have nearly the same trajectory. No change in sight-in, no change in POA. Very close to same POI.

Now THAT'S real convenient for you, isn't it?

Don

 

[Shane in MT]

jpwilly,

I've only shot one formal competition. Lots of fun. Field precision match near Ryegate MT. Steel from 200 out to 1000 yards. Placed third out of 11 competitors. With the price of gas down to reasonable levels I will start getting out to a few more.

Most of the time I shoot on my own on public land. Set up steel and move around to different locations to shoot it. I've plinked at a juniper bush at 1900 yards with the 208 AMax. Dust signature was good enough to self spot through the scope. Had about 97 moa correction between the erector, and reticle holdoff.

Here's a pic of a setup I was shooting from 1025 yards. Wind was killin me, only two hits on steel out of 10 shots. I was holding/dialing around 7 moa wind, at a 15" wide target. So figure 7.5" of error possible while trying to read a 70-ish" wind drift. Lots of fun......grin.

1025 yards,


1025 yard target through 16X Leupold. Mirage affects pic quality,


2 hits out of 10. Wind was 10-15 mph full-value. Elevation was good and consistent,

 

[gvnwst]

Dang, waht was your vertical elevation above that target? Nice shooting for that wind speed.

 

[Mauserguy]

Dang! I feel lucky to hit the target at 100 yards.
Mauserguy

PS: The '06 is a great cartridge.

 

[Art Eatman]

This is giving me ideas for an Olde Phart's new game. I already have a 500-yard setup at the house, and all I'd have to do to set up for Way Out There is take the backhoe out and add more backstops.

I've always been a hunter, so one MOA and 400 to 500 yards is about all I've ever worried about.

Hmmmm.......

 

[Shane in MT]

In the above location, I was approx 400-500 feet higher than my target.

I find shooting the long range steel to be fun, challenging, and educational. Immediate visual/audio feedback is great. It's amazing how much trickier it gets past 800 yards (the wind) with a 308. The 30-06 with 208s/210s rides the wind a bit better, but still a challenge when the wind get over about 10 mph full-value at that distance.

 

[Shane in MT]

Wind speed/direction makes a huge difference.

This target was shot at 1120 yards with a 308 Win pushing the 208 AMax at a modest 2480 fps. Wind was 15+ mph but almost directly from 6 oclock. I only dialed 1 moa windage and made several consistent hits after a couple misses and scope adjustments.

 

[SSN Vet]

very cool write up.

thanks for posting it

 

[USSR]

Nice rifles and great load info. You guys shoot in any competitions?

I shot 1,000 yard F Class for 6 years. Started out using the '06, but later switched to a 6.5x55 I had built for just that purpose.

Shane,

What twist rate is your .308?

Don

 

[Shane in MT]

Don,

It's a 1/12 twist. Factory 26" varmint barrel, cut back. In that pic it was at 22". It's down to 20.5" now, plus a Thruster brake.

 

[USSR]

Shane,

Don't you know you need atleast a 1-10" twist to shoot those heavy bullets? Well, there goes another internet fact.

Don

 

[Shane in MT]

It was/is a pleasant surprise that they work in that barrel.

Easy to like a .648 BC.

I took them out to 1850 yards, and they were stable.

 

[MCMXI]

Hey, all this talk about the 208gr A-MAX is making me nervous ... next thing I know they'll jack up the price so that they cost as much as Sierra bullets. I recently bought 500 of them and shot the first 30 today from my .300 Win Mag. I'm following the OCR method so I loaded up (with brand new W-W Super brass) 67.5gr, 68.5gr, 69.5gr, 70.5gr and 71.5gr of Reloder 22 ... 10 of the first load (five to get the scope adjusted) and five each of the rest. I'm using the "round robin" method where you shoot the first load at target 1, the second load at target 2, the third load at target 3 etc until you've shot all five targets, then you start again and keep doing that until all five (or more) targets have five (or more) shots on them. Best group at 100 yards was 5/8" (six shot group since I had one sighter left) with the 67.5gr load. Next best five-shot group was 11/16" with the 70.5gr load. I think the sweet spot is somewhere between 69.0 gr and 71.0 gr since the average POI didn't change over that range. I'm hoping to shoot a long-range (out to 600 yards) tactical match in a couple of months so I want to get the "best" load figured out well before then.

I made a post a few weeks back complaining about the cost of Sierra bullets and I mentioned that I had ordered a bunch of Hornady 208gr A-MAX bullets since they're about 30% cheaper. Sometimes good things come to us in mysterious ways. I've been shooting Sierra MatchKings for so long that I've never considered anything else. Now that I've used the A-MAX bullets and seen for myself how accurate they are, I won't be going back to Sierra anytime soon.