So much for "Less than Lethal"... Red Sox Fan Killed by Police Projectile

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Roadkill Coyote
At my agency, like many others, an specialty impact round, whether it be 40mm, 12 gauge, or anything else is considered to be below lethal force, equivalent to being struck with a baton.
Would a baton blow to the head be considered lethal force?

Keaner
As far as hitting the girl in the head, I would believe that it was a cause of horrible aim.
Bad aim places the blame upon the officer. Furthermore, if he can't reliably place shots below a suspect's neck, then he shouldn't be carrying the weapon.

Dbl0Kevin
Interesting you choose to blame the officer.
Isn't he responsible for the rounds he fires?
 
Isn't he responsible for the rounds he fires?

Of course he is, but if he fires those rounds in accordance with proper rules, regulations and training as was said before, NOTHING is foolproof. If an officer is acting in good faith and does what he was trained to do then no he's not responsible for the death of this girl.

Let me give you a real world example. Let's say you and a friend are out somewhere. You are legally carrying a firearm and were then assaulted by a number of people with weapons and believed your life to be in danger. You were unable to retreat as all your avenues of escape had been cut off. You draw your weapon, take aim at the closest attacker that you believe to be a threat and after making sure you have a good backstop fire. However, just at the moment you were firing your friend does not realize what's going on and bolts in front of you and in your line of fire. Should you then be prosecuted for homocide?

This same situation is magnified by 10 in the middle of a riot with people moving around like crazy. As was said before someone could have ducked or moved, or this girl could have inadvertantly moved in the path of this round. You can't look at things as if they were in a vacumn.
 
Our target areas for a specialty impact round are limited. The head, chest, and spine are not to be targeted unless lethal force is warranted.

Unfortunately, we don't know what Boston's policy and training are like yet.
 
I'll also add that I've had basic riot control training, and it is NOT a precise science. You are basically marching right into mayhem and it's everyone's job to look out for everyone else. I was not trained with pepperball guns, but with riot batons and it's a very simple and blunt process. You move forward and if someone comes at you then they get hit. Someone grabs your baton the guy next to you whacks his hand. If they don't move back and continue to attack you pull them in and there are control officers behind the lines waiting to pounce and arrest anyone that you push through. You NEVER break the line and go out to chase someone.....that's how you get hurt BAD. The goal is not to make arrests, it is to disperse the crowd. With this process people will get hurt......a whole lot more people than would usually be hurt with a pepperball gun.

The fact is that riots are violent. In order to stop riots you have to sometimes use equal force or things will get worse. In that process people will often get hurt and tragically sometimes people will get killed. It's a sad thing, but if people really didn't want this to happen then they wouldn't start a riot over a baseball game or for that matter stay around and watch a riot after it's been started and you have been ordered to disperse.
 
Hum...

Less than lethal means.... Not lethal

Another wonderful example of Americans storm troopers... er... police, pardon me, in action.
 
Dbl0Kevin,

I don't know whether you have children of your own, but as a father I can assure you that if it were your child lying in the morgue the last thing you'd be doing is sitting there wondering why she hadn't left the scene before things turned ugly. No, let's be brutally honest - the only thought running through your mind would be that your little baby girl is dead and that rat $%#@! killed her. It wouldn't matter in the least that the individual responsible for her death wore a badge because you'd want vengeance regardless, and want it with such a passion that you'd take it any way you could get it.
 
It wouldn't matter in the least that the individual responsible for her death wore a badge because you'd want vengeance regardless, and want it with such a passion that you'd take it any way you could get it.

While not with a child I've been in a similar situation before and wanted vengeance on people. But even so I would not seek vengeance on someone who was not at fault. If anyone I would want to go after the immature idiots who started a riot over a game, not the officer who was only doing his job responding to THEIR foolishness.
 
With this process people will get hurt......a whole lot more people than would usually be hurt with a pepperball gun.
DINGDINGDING. We have a winner.

The whole point is to put the riot down without serious injury. Obviously that didn't pan out in this instance, but the vast majority of the time it works a heck of a lot better than hand to hand combat with clubs. :rolleyes:

Hum...

Less than lethal means.... Not lethal

Another wonderful example of Americans storm troopers... er... police, pardon me, in action.
1. Actually the term usually used is less lethal, which means that it is less likely to be lethal than say, shooting someone with a .45 ACP. No where in any manufacturer-approved training program would it say that the device is completely non-lethal. Or, if it does say that, game on with the high-capacity assault lawyers. ;)

2. Is your reasoning really so feeble that you must resort to name calling in order to make your points? Most of us gave that up sometime in grade school. However, if we must: I'm rubber, you're glue. Carry on. ;)
What ever happened to good old tear gas? Just lob a few canisters and people will settle down.
Tear gas has a multitude of limitations, any one of which might have made it inappropriate for deployment in the instance. Wind-drift, proximity to homes and a tendency for rioters to pick the cannisters up and throw them back are among the biggest limitations.

Mike
 
The same logic applies to just letting the rioters torch cars and smash shops. So what if some people's things get broken? No one died.

Tear gas can be very effective. Tear gas can also be wholly ineffective. It all depends on the situation. It also may not have been available. The presence of bottle and brick throwers, weather conditions or geography might have completely contraindicated it. As always, decisions about uses of force are tough. You make the call you think is right, and the whole idea is to preserve everyone's life, limb and property (pretty much in that order).

Sadly, it didn't work out this time.

Mike
 
This doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but large crowds in a festive mood can be a very bad situation waiting to happen.
I have the displeasure of working on a certain holiday every year in a certain resort community that is featured on all the TV broadcasts of this holiday's festivities. Where crowds of 100,000 or more people are on the streets. I work in a strike team made up of something like 10 police officers and two medics. Every time I do this I look out at the crowd and get a real sick feeling in my stomach. I fully realize that if these people get out of control, I am a dead man. I know that 99% of them are drunk and already partially out of control. The fact that I am wearing Level 4 body armor doesn't give me any comfort: odds are, I am not going to be defending myself against bullets. And, I am totally unarmed.
I guess the point to all this is, that I can fully understand how something like this incident might happen.
At the first sign of any trouble the police officers I have worked with very aggressively handled the situation before it escalates.

"The attitude that the police are at fault no matter what they do that some of you people have disgusts me."
This reminded me of a sort of funny story that occured while I was working one of these details. An Asian man stopped at a traffic light right in front of where we were standing. The car behind him had two hispanic gentlemen in it, and the car behind them had two African-American gentlemen in it. When the light turned green, the Asian gentlemen's car whouldn't work (the transmission went out). After a moment, the hispanic gentlemen decided to pull around him. However, at the same time the African-American gentlemen made the same decision. All the parties involved got out of their vehicles and started fighting in the middle of the street. The police I was with ran over and broke it up. One gentleman had no intention of stopping and was subdued with a baton. All were handcuffed. The police officer who used his baton happened to be white. While all this was going on I was standing on the curb waiting until they got it sorted out. Next to me, a woman commented that this looked like the police's actions were racially motivated. :rolleyes: I realized that the police could not win. Three different minority groups were involved and short of just ignoring it, someone would say that some ethnic group was singled out. :banghead:
 
CannibalCrowley:

If I see you harp on and on one more time about the cop not firing at center mass, I think I'm going to scream at the top of my lungs and bang my face against my keyboard. Think about what you are saying, then think again, then think some more, then ask a friend, then think a little bit more.

One: it is doubtful and unsupported by the evidence we have that Victoria Snelgrove was the intended target. Can we agree on this?

If she was not the intended target, then it is possible that a number of factors were in play:

1. The intended target was 6'4". His or her center mass would equate to a person of smaller stature's facial area. A round is fired, the target moves, someone gets hit in the face. Example: I am 6'2", my ex GF was 5'5" or so, a round fired at my chest would strike her in the face if I moved and she was behind me and in direct line of flight of said projectile. My Current GF is 5'8", the round might hit her in the throat given the same circumstance. Again, the target area of the intended mark was justifiably center mass, just as you harp on and on about, yet because I (or the target in question) moved a bit to the left or right a split second before or during the flight of the projectile, either one of the ladies in my romantic history would be likely to sustain serious injury and possibly death. Does anyone know the height of Victoria Snelgrove? What about the intended target?

2. Victoria and the intended target were not on a level surface relative to one another. Victoria was on a slope, incline or lower surface pane than the target, he or she moved, Victoria was behind him or her and the round struck her in the eye. Again, the round was fired at a justifiable center mass area, but someone is hurt or killed.

3. Victoria was slouching, bent down, leaning forward or to the side. The target moved and because her head was pivoted and on a lower axis than it would have been normally and possibly at level with the target's center mass area, when he or she moved, Victoria was struck and killed.

4. The round hit the intended target, but it hit the sleeve or part of clothing as the target pivoted. The impact was not enough to cause the round to break, but the glancing off of the fabric caused a physical reaction to the flight path of the projectile and the result is that Victoria was struck in the face and killed.


It could be any, all, some or none of these factors that contributed to the death of Victoria Snelgrove, we don't really know just yet.

You see, the real world does not occur in a vacuum. You have no idea of the environment or the physiology of those involved. Her facial area may very well have been someone else's (and the intended targets) center mass relative to one another. You see, us real people, we're not all the same size and shape, sometimes the surfaces we stand on are not all level in relation to one another, and sometimes we slouch, have poor posture or actually move about, pivoting at the hips and neck which causes our facial area to move up and down and side to side. I know, who would have thought?

Until you have all of these variables as evidence at your disposal, you are doing nothing more than exhibiting inflammatory and irresponsible statements and attitude. So kindly shut up about the "center mass" argument now and add something a little more constructive to the discussion. Thank you.
 
Your response was well thought out and stated, but one of the rules of gun safety is to be aware of whats behind your target.

Ya know I really hate to say this but sometimes people here REALLY take those rules a bit too far. For the normal everyday situation or out on the range those rules are golden. In the middle of a battle or a riot where lives are on the line there are sometimes different rules. Not to mention the fact that what was fired was not a GUN. It was a crowd dispersement weapon that fired a chemical round. These LESS lethal (i'm really not gonna get into that again since Coronarch already settled it more than once) are MEANT to be fired into CROWDS. When you fire into a CROWD there is absolutely NO way for the rule to make sure of what your backstop is to apply. I'm sorry but you can't equate your experience of going shooting at the range and the rules you have to obey there to an officer with a pepperball device in a riot. They are two completely different and exclusive situations.
 
So it is OK for police to use lethal force to break up a mob? If that what you think, then thats fine, but why not just let them use sub machine guns. If you don't think they should use lethal force, then they should not be using lethal weapons.

And I think what he fired was a gun... you said yourself that these things are lethal. It looks like a gun, works like a gun, fires a projectile, and is lethal. That pretty much is a gun.

Why not just pepper spray if you arent trying to kill someone?
 
Lone_Gunman:

I am well-aware of the safety rules, as I am sure most everyone that owns a firearms is. The simple fact is, I do not know whether the officer followed that rule or even if it indeed applies, neither do you really.

One:
Again, it may have hit a piece of fabric, changed flight paths and hit the girl. We don't know.

Two:
Like some paintball markers (notice I did not say gun), the projectile may curve and alter trajectory in flight. She may not have been behind the target. We don't know.

Three:
Regardless if you or I think these weapons should be fired into crowds or not, that's how they're designed, that's why they're deployed and I'm quite sure that is how they train with them. In that case, blame the training program, not the officer that simply followed his or her orders, job requirements and training. Again, we do not know.

A firearm that fires a real bullet would be different. The concern there is not so much the often mis-hyped ricochette, it's overpenetration or a complete miss. Firearms are designed to kill, these rounds are not designed to kill. That's the difference. Simply because it has in fact killed someone in a freak accident makes no matter on the intended use and the design of it in the first place.

I have read that this is the first death with this type of device, and that only 17 deaths have been reported ever with similar devices. So yeah, I would say they are less-lethal and not in the same ballpark as a firearm. However, take that statistic with a grain of salt as I did read it on the internet.
 
What's all this about "behind your target" or "beyond your target"??

The crowd was the target.

The girl was part of the crowd.

Legally, every member of an attacking mob shares responsibility for the fear the mob creates in its victim(s), and every member of such a mob jointly shares the jeopardy caused by its victim(s) response.

It's too bad the crowd became so unruly that the local authorities were justifiably concerned about destruction of property and potential loss of life caused by the crowd's actions, and it's also too bad the girl didn't have the brains to quietly disappear from the scene when the crowd got ugly -- and especially so when the crowd was ordered to disperse.

Those of you calling for "equality under the law" should realize that if you are ever attacked by four or five gang members, and shoot to stop the attack, it won't matter if you hit the guy leading the attack or the gang member standing with his finger in his nose at the rear of the gang. Either is an equally good legal shoot. The only issue for you will be whether shooting the guy in the rear is a good tactical move.

pax
 
What's all this about "behind your target" or "beyond your target"??

The crowd was the target.

The girl was part of the crowd.

Legally, every member of an attacking mob shares responsibility for the fear the mob creates in its victim(s), and every member of such a mob jointly shares the jeopardy caused by its victim(s) response.

Youch. It hurts me to disagree with Pax, but I just have to.

Thousands of sports fans, even if many are drunk and stupid, and even if a couple dozen are destructive, is not in any way analogous to a gang of five.

They do not share common intent, previous association or premeditation.

Property crimes rarely call for potentially lethal force, so even if the riot were composed purely of car-tippers and tire-burners, shooting may not have been justified. But when thousands of people are, really, peacably assembled, and a couple dozen donkeyholes decide to break stuff, shooting what may well be a lethal weapon is certainly not justified.

A better analogy than Pax's would be pursuing that gang of five into a crowd of a thousand and letting loose with some .45 slugs. It is grossly irresponsible to target the many to impact the few.

Further, some news accounts seemed to indicate that there wasn't even any destructive behavior near the dead girl's position.

Finally, I've read a bit about equestrian officers in crowd control. A horse is a psychological and contact-based crowd-control tool. A mounted officer inspires a great deal of respect as the people below look up at the officer on a horse that is over five feet at the shoulder and weighs at least a thousand pounds. And such a horse is very effective at pushing people in any desired direction with its sheer bulk.

But a horse It is decidedly NOT a steady platform for ballistic launch.
 
This is for everyone who believes that the officer was simply firing into the crowd and not targeting a specific person. Even Pepperball (which is less dangerous than the FN303 which was used), says that one should either target suspects as individuals or fire at a hard object.
Suspects can be individually targeted or PAVA powder can be distributed over an entire group by launching a volley of projectiles against a wall, street, or hard object above, near, or upwind of a group of targets from distances up to 150 feet.
I'm unable to locate any crowd employment info specific to the FN303. If you have a weapon which may seriously injure or even kill someone if they are struck in the neck or face, would blindly firing into a crowd be a responsible thing to do?

Does anyone have an available video of the incident itself? CNN had this to say about it:
However, video from the scene where Snelgrove was struck showed the crowd in a joyous mood, slapping high fives and chanting celebratory Red Sox slogans. There were no signs of near-riotous conditions in that immediate vicinity although the area was crowded, and dozens of people near her stopped celebrating when they realized the severity of her injury and they tried to get help. (LINK)
 
Name calling, Mr. Coronach?

No, simply many years of personal observation of "society's protectors" in action.

The Nazi storm troopers were also rather tame compared to some of the "boys in blue" I've witness in action over the years.
 
Reports from the area say the police had 37mm bean bag launchers, Tippmann 98s with 68 caliber pepper balls and FN303s with the fin stabilized bismuth rounds.

i have seen a Tippmann land a paintball 20 feet off of the intended target at 50 feet.

The FN303s are designed with superior accuracy compared to the common pepperball launcher.
They are far less likely to hit where they are not directed.


Boston police accept 'full responsibility' in death of Red Sox fan
Woman killed by projectile fired to disperse crowds
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/22/fan.death/index.html
 
Name calling, Mr. Coronach?

No, simply many years of personal observation of "society's protectors" in action.

The Nazi storm troopers were also rather tame compared to some of the "boys in blue" I've witness in action over the years.
I dunno. I've spent several years watching "America's Gun Owners" in action, then, too. Want to be tarred with that brush?

The point I'm trying to make is that it is far easier to generalize and use slurs based upon the perceptions caused by a relative few in any given group than it is to take a thoughtful, considered approach. One requires thought, the other just a soundbyte.

Rule 4: Know Your Target and What is Beyond It
Pax hit the nail on the head. Yes, all impact-style crowd control munitions are most effective if aimed for a certain body part of a rioter, preferably an agitator. However, all crowd control munitions are designed to be used (drumroll) against a crowd. This means that their engagement envelope is not so limited that you must have one solitary rioter (a contradiction in terms) up against a solid brick wall before you can pull the trigger. Do you aim for, say, chest and below? Yes. Do you try to pick out an agitator to be the unwilling recipient of several ounces of munition travelling at 300 fps? Yes.

However, if you have a mass of people running arund and throwing bricks and bottles at you, do you stand there and wait for the perfect shot before you loose a round? No, you do not. You take aim at a rioter or a knot of violent people, try to keep it to the level of chest and below, pull the trigger, and reload.

These weapons are designed to be used against a crowd. There will always be people in front of, beside, and behind the intended target. Guess what? They're targets, too.

Now. Was Snelgrove or anyone in Snelgrove's immediate area the target? Quite possibly no. Certainly Snelgrove was not. However, there should not have been anyone there, Snelgrove included. Someone between Snelgrove and the police was the intended target (or the round took a very very freak bounce, which is also quite possible)...so despite what CNN says, it is exceedingly likely that someone in the "area" was being violent. As a matter of fact, the original news stories state that this happened just after a bottle was hurled at a mounted officer, and another officer in the vicinity shot the munitions into the crowd. So much for no one being violent in the area.

The main problem in relying on witness testimony about what was happening is this: witnesses can testify with relative certainty to what they see. They cannot testify at all to what they don't see. Think about this for a moment. You're in a crowd of yelling, jumping, shouting people. It's easy to lose track of the people you are there with...and if you cannot even keep a simple visual track on your friends, how can you state with certainty that no one was engaing in any given activity anywhere in the square? That is why whenever I hear anyone say "Dude, I was there, and no one was throwing bottles" I automatically translate that into "I didn't see anyone throw any bottles." A fine distinction, you might argue, but when you also were there and had two bottles bounce off your shield, you know that someone there was lobbing empties at you. ;) (and, heh, you know what? I didn't see anyone throw the bottle either...but unless it is suddenly raining Miller Genuine Draft, I know it was thrown)

Also, Matt Payne, perhaps I'm misreading...but I did not get the idea that a mounted officer fired the weapon. Generally, they don't give such weapons to mounted officers for the very reason you gave. Also, they are two handed weapons, and unlike the knights of old, most mounted officers are not adept that riding without use of reins.

The simple facts are this- a young woman is dead and it is a tragedy. It remains to be seen if this tragedy is the result of a freak chance, or if an officer was using a crowd control munition improperly.

Mike
 
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