So we agree the NRA stinks?

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Thanks, but I'll speak for myself.

No organization, especially one with close to 4 million members, is going to be able to please everyone all of the time.

If you're 100% happy as a clam with them, they're pissing someone else off who doesn't share your particular vision.

Being a gun owner means a LOT of different things to a lot of different people.

There are those who say "no restrictions on any guns at all."

There are those who say "I don't think anyone needs an assault rifle, but leave my bolt-action hunting rifle alone."

There are those who say "I'm only a hunter, I'd never use a gun to defend myself, so I have nothing to worry about."

Then there are those who say "I'm a trap and skeet shooter. As long as they don't touch my Perazzi, they can ban all the guns they want and I don't care."

Then, of course, there are the coheisve groups -- the hunters vs. the strict Second Amendmentists vs. the hard core legislatives vs. the high power rifle shooters, etc. ad nauseum.

I spent 3.5 years INSIDE the NRA as an employee. Am I 100% happy with them and everything they've done, and are doing?

Nope.

But do I have any illusions at all where gunowners would be in this country without the NRA?

Nope.

A long-term politician once told me that the BEST way to destroy any credibility you have with your FRIENDS in a legislative body is to adopt an absolutist stance. NRA is somewhat unique in that it's data has credibility not only with our Friends, but with those who are also apathetic toward us, and to a degree even with those who do not like us. I can't think of another organization, perhaps other than AARP, that has that kind of cross-Congressional clout.

I think everyone really needs to get used to a simple fact of life. The Supreme Court is NEVER going to take on the kind of sweeping "Second Amendment, absolut or conditional" case that we want. The Supremes don't have the guts.

My suggestion to you is one of two options.

Run for the NRA Board of Directors in an effort to change the inequities you see in the organization.

Or two, quit NRA and join one of the smaller, more directed lobbying groups that doesn't have NRA's war chest, its member number clout, or its access to politicians.

But, for God's sake, do SOMETHING.
 
I agree with Mike an organization of 4 million members cannot please everybody all the time. I also do not agree with all their policies but they are out there doing battle for us. I am a Life Member and proud of it. Having said that I will get off my a@@ and help my gun club do more legislative action. The club I belong to is looking to join forces with other organizations and fight for our rights. I live in NJ so I basically have no rights.

What is GOA? I would like to investigate and possibly join.
 
I've never been a member of the NRA, and as long as it doesn't interfere with my shooting range choices, I don't intend to. I don't need to see my money spend on promotional videos and magazines. Moreoever, I haven't seen the NRA helping out MA, NY, and NJ. They seem to only care about the southern half of the country so why bother? They don't make any difference where I live to make it worth my while to part with my money. :neener:
 
Hello All.

I think we have to remember that the NRA-ILA is a POLITICAL beastie. On any political issue, you have those at either end of the spectrum who aren't going to budge because, like us, they have arrived at their position through reasoned, thoughtful contemplation, or like them, who haven't. :D But, the trick to politics is to sway the ones in the middle. To reach them, you have to be somewhat in the middle. That's the sticking point. People of principle detest compromise. Whenever the ancient Greeks found a man of solid principles, they would force him into public office at the point of a sword. Because they knew that he would never approach that "roiling snakepit" voluntarily, and because they knew (or at least hoped) that he would place his principles above personal gain. So, while I too long for more forceful and decisive action, I have to remember that politics does not work that way, stinking necessary evil that it is. I do realize, though, that I could never accomplish much in the active arena of political compromise. As much as it galls, we have to admit that we need those who can.
 
What Mike said.

To indirectly quote Abraham Lincoln, 'You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time.'
 
No, I don't, but the Democrats agree with you. In fact former President Clinton credited the NRA by name as the cause of the democratic parties stunning defeat at the polls in the last presidential election. After the last general election many Democrats stated on national TV that one of the biggest things that hurt them was their stance on guns.
As was mentioned, when you see, or hear anything from anti-gun organizations about their enemy, the organization they mention is the NRA. Think about that for a minute. Just stop and think, it won't hurt. If that is the organization our enemies fear, what does that say ?

In the future, do not, under any circumstances presume to speak for me. I can make up my own mind about my own viewpoints.
 
The NRA is the oldest and largest Civil Rights group in America.

There are several effective groups.

No one group will solve the problem or change what has already happened.

Now we can make the anti gun groups very happy and destroy the NRA or we can kick their ***'s.

I prefer to win, which in this case is to protect and strengthen the Bill of Rights 2nd Amendement.

Is the NRA perfect. nope, but it is a democratic organization. If you become a life or higher member you can effect what happens. Many guys will complain about the cost of membership. About the cost of One gun.

Make up your minds fight or whine, I support the other pro gun groups with money and issues.

Don't like the NRA, change it. It will not happen over night, but if you mean what you say, just do it!

If you want to get rid of Wayne, join and vote him out! It will not be easy or quick, but can and will happen if in fact you and the folks who agree with you want to and are the majority.

It's like in govenment. In a democracy the people get the government they want and deserve. Vote! Educate! Persuade! and then Vote and get the folks who agree with you to the poles.

Fred
 
I think the NRA has some serious attitude problems. Like "if it wasn't our idea, we're not supportin' it". Putting that aside, they touch the largest group of gun owners with information that allows them to mount personal efforts in email, phone, and letters.

Just because you're a member of the NRA, GOA, or JPFO doesn't excuse you from pulling out the pen and writing your Reps and Sens. (State and Federal) to make sure they know your stand on the issues. There is no substitute for personal activism.

Some things the NRA does I don't like. I do enjoy the magazine "America's 1st Freedom". The GOA or JPFO represent me more fully on the 2A and I do send them some $$$$'s as well.

The biggest beef I have with the NRA is when they take opposite sides (legally) on 2A issues from GOA or JPFO. They should just shut up if they have nothing good to say but hey, it's a free country.

I don't think they stink, they're just a shooting sports organization force into political lobbying to protect their interests.
:scrutiny:
 
Rick_Reno asked a good question:

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Jim March posted "The guys running the Fairfax operation are crafty political operators following a long-term plan, one I mostly support."

Jim - since you seem to have inside info on what their gameplan is - could you enlighten us? From where I sit it looks like this; continually cut deals with the anti-gun forces that are better than what the anti-gunners want - but continue to erode our Rights away.

Maybe you can help me understand where is the line in the sand for these crafty people in Fairfax? Do they have one?
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OK, let's take it point by point.

At the state level:

Get shall-issue CCW in, as "offensive priority one". There's a good reason for that - once a lot of people are legally strapped and there's no "wave of violence" as inevitably predicted beforehand, the level of "gun control agitation" on ALL issues drops dramatically. Widespread packin' with no downsides is the best "proof" we have to both voters and politicians that we're in the right.

An example of how that helps: Michigan went shall-issue in 2000, from being very discriminatory with CCW permits. One of the key politicians fighting the reform was the state attorney general, lady name of Granholm. After a year of shall-issue went by and newspaper reports started talking about the lack of negatives (see also my archive of such, at
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/ccweffects.html ), Granholm not only stopped agitating for ANY gun control, in 2002 she ran for Governor and picked a strong pro-gun Lt. Governor running mate! That's less than two years after being the NUMBER ONE anti-gun politician in the state!

As another example, Dubya signed shall-issue CCW in Texas in '96, signed a nice package of CCW improvements in '98 plus signed a ban on suing gun makers. And then during the Prez race, he out-polled Gore on the gun issue! Gore lost in almost every shall-issue state, including his HOME state, because it was just too obvious that his demonization of gun owners was just crap.

Other state actions: elect the good guys, and worst case play defense against grabber bills in the hellholes like Calif/NJ/NY/MA/etc.

Federal level: the court gameplan is to take it slow and steady, with *several* cases going to the USSC over a period of years. A frequently cited example is how during the 1930s and 1940s, the Jehovah's Witnesses took eight separate cases to the USSC, covering free speech, legality of their faith, saluting the flag in schools, ability to knock on doors without prior permission or permits, military service (lack thereof), etc. (Weird they may be, but because of them you can go knock on people's doors and talk politics to whoever will willingly listen; political speech and religious speech are "equally highly protected".)

The "gunnie equivelent" will be to first take a clear "individual right" case up, with no "state incorporation issues" and no "criminal-appearing defendant" if possible. Which is why they'd rather push the Cato/NRA joint case in DC to the USSC before a mixed-up critter like Silveira in the relentlessly grabber 9th Circuit. To do this, they needed justices they could trust, and Dubya's record on judge picks in Texas was very good. So putting Dubya in office was a clear win and to get there, they had to stay moderate-looking! That meant having Charleton Heston wave a Flintlock instead of an Armalite. They knew it was working when Bush out-polled Gore on guns early in the race, so they stuck with what was working.

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All that said, sure, there's gaps. There always will be. Myself and a bunch of others realize that, so we go off and do our own things and as long as we don't badmouth the NRA, not only are we not slowed down, we get access to internal NRA people, information and resources.

If you're in the SF Bay Area, esp. the south bay/San Jose area, the following may be of interest. I didn't write this, it's the EMail broadcast by the NRA Member's Council leadership there. Note the guest speaker:

================

MC of Silicon Valley: Meeting Reminder

IN THIS ISSUE:

* NRA MC of Silicon Valley Officers Election Meeting: Thursday
night, January 30

The next meeting of the NRA Members Council of Silicon Valley is Thursday night, January 30, at 7:00 PM at Harry's Hofbrau in San Jose, on Saratoga Ave near Highway 280. Please sign-in at the front desk so that we can keep your membership current.

Scheduled guest speaker for this meeting is Jim March, covering California Concealed Weapons permits issuance processes and their abuses.

Optional no-host dinner begins at 6PM; the meeting begins promptly at 7:00PM.

The meeting location is:
Harry's Hofbrau (rear meeting room, end of the hallway past the register)
390 Saratoga Avenue
San Jose, CA

Directions:
From freeway 280, take Saratoga Avenue northbound. Pass one light (Kiely) and turn into the driveway after the Chevron station.

Parking:
Parking is limited by the restaurant and tends to fill up. Some street parking is available on Saratoga Ave. and Kiely Ave. Also, the North end of the lot (toward Stevens Creek Blvd) by the bank building, the area in front of the long-closed Squeezer's Burger restaurant, and the Radio Shack Outlet areas tend to have parking available at that hour.

Good "parking citizenship" can help us stay at Harry's.

If you plan to have dinner there, please arrive early... there's generally little seating available at tables by the time the meeting starts.

Note: Harry's Hofbrau no longer requires us to save meal receipts, but we still encourage our members to have meals there as a "thank you" for the use of their large meeting room.

Alan will also have recent editions of the California Constitution books (with the US Constitution and other related documents) available for $5 each.

NOTE FOR NRA MEMBERS: Please sign-in at all meetings so that you can maintain your "voting member in good standing" status. If you know in advance that you must miss a meeting, notify Alan so he can record you as "excused" for that meeting. Members who miss three or more consecutive meetings (excluding "excused" absences with advance notice) lose "good standing" status (which generally affects only your voting rights in the Council). All NRA members will be given a copy of the bylaws upon initial sign-in and upon request.

NON-MEMBERS and GUESTS are welcome at all Public Outreach meetings; these monthly meetings are always open to the public. For Members Council private business (such as annual elections), the President may adjourn to an Executive Member Session whose attendance will be limited to NRA Members in Good Standing; if this occurs, the meeting will revert to a Public Outreach meeting once any such Member-specific business is completed.

The Members Council of Silicon Valley does not currently charge membership dues; instead, we rely on donations and our meeting prize drawings to pay expenses. Donations of cash and of merchandise suitable for our drawings are always welcome. For a free ticket to the monthly meeting drawing, send a plain written request to the P.O. Box listed above with your full name and address. One ticket request per envelope. Ticket will be held for you on a "will call" basis at the meeting. Such requests must be received at least two weeks prior to that meeting date.

TO ALL: Please periodically verify your contact information with Alan at the entrance desk and NOTIFY HIM of ANY changes as soon as possible; this is particularly important for automated phone call recipients. You can email updates to Alan at [email protected] at any time.

CONTACT INFORMATION FOR THE NRA MEMBERS' COUNCIL OF SILICON VALLEY
------------------------------------------------------------------

NRA Members Council of Silicon Valley
P.O. Box 640756
San Jose, CA 95164-0756
http://www.siliconvalleymc.org

Contact database changes/adds/deletes: email [email protected]

24-hour message and info line: (408) 235-9175

Members' Council Women's Page: http://www.siliconvalleymc.org/women

NRA national WWW: http://www.nra.org

Current California Legislation information and legislator contact tools:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml

List of gun clubs in California: http://caoutdoors.com/Gun_Clubs.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an unofficial publication on behalf of the NRA Members Council of Silicon Valley by Alan Denney, who assumes all responsibility for its content. Statements here represent only the opinion of the author or editor. Candidates or officeholders mentioned herein are not necessarily endorsed by NRA unless so indicated.

Thank you for your participation in and support of the Members Council.
--
Johann Opitz <[email protected]> RKBA!
 
Just because you're a member of the NRA, GOA, or JPFO doesn't excuse you from pulling out the pen and writing your Reps and Sens. (State and Federal) to make sure they know your stand on the issues. There is no substitute for personal activism. (emphasis added)
Bingo!

How many of the "mavericks" here teach firearms safety?

If so, what method/system do you use?

How often do you teach, and how many students did you have last year?

How many ran for/hold political office, local or otherwise?

How many attend public meetings in their area where firearms use/rights are at issue?

How many do contact their elected representatives on a regular basis?

G.O.A. and J.F.P.O. are very worthy organizations, their work is no less important than N.R.A.'s, but ask 100 people what those acronyms stand for (even at a range) and maybe 4-5 out of a hundred will know either G.O.A. or J.F.P.O. Maybe 2 will know all three. Just one of those tough little facts of life. Kind of like the "Macs are better than PCs" thing. What market share does Mac have 2%? Somebody call a Whaaaaambulance.

If you disagree with where N.R.A. is headed, run for the board. Shy of that, help someone with a winner's attitude run.

Or take your ball and run home. Whatever. :rolleyes:
 
OK, so let's pick a couple or twelve people from this board and vote them in to NRA office next time. I've honestly never looked at the number of votes necessary to get someone elected but surely between membership here and those we have contact with otherwise we could get the job done?

Hey, I'll volunteer. :evil:
 
I'll support anyone that supports my rights. I'd spend the money again to become a life member. I think most gun owners that are against pro-gun groups are just to cheap to join.
 
why don't we all switch?
As several others have already mentioned, no need to switch: you can join the other groups in addition to the NRA. Cover all the bases! I really doubt if there are many folks here who cannot afford to belong to more than one group if they want to. If you can afford a computer, you can afford the other memberships. They cost, what, about the same as one ink-jet cartridge ?
 
No we don't agree. AT ALL!!

This mentality sounds like the spoiled child who wants everything his way and is unwilling to face the way the REAL world works, through comprimise and negotiation.

THINK about it, without the NRA, who do you think would be FORCING the gun grabbers to back off on their agenda? It would go the way of the gun grabbers only. So they meet in the middle on some things. Guess what; that means it keeps moving our way. Slowly, surely, but our way.

And since when wa membership in NRA exclusive of GOA or any other orgainzation? If you don't belong to ALL of them, you're not pulling your weight.

So fine, take your $35 and spend it elsewhere. Might I suggest you give it directly to HCI, because that's really what you're advocating. :fire:
 
When Brady Campaign says it wants just ABC and doesn't push for a total ban of gun ownership, RKBAers suspect that its just a trick -- that it'll get what it can now and come back later for more.

When the NRA says it wants just XYZ and doesn't push for totally unfettered gun ownership, some RKBAers take it at face value and get angry.

Ever stop to think that the NRA might be playing the same game of bread-slices that the Brady folks are, but in the opposite direction?
 
Any doubts I have about the NRA are destroyed every time I visit a left-wing board. They would LOVE to see gun owners go elsewhere. The NRA is the most hated and feared lobbying group in the nation. Let's keep it that way!
 
They get all the lawyers off the payroll, and I will join.

The NRA is a money sponge, and are not taking advantage of the current situation, by promoting firearms training for citizens.

For days after 9/11, gun sales were off the scale.
They should have put flyers in every gun store, and retail outlets that sell firearms, and offered free firearms training.

Yeah they are a big lobby, but wining and dining, scumbag politicians, is inherently redundant, in my opinion.

waterdog
 
NRA, GOA, JPFO, CMP, writing letters to your representatives, supporting pro-2nd Amendment candidates, calling anti-RKBA politicians/media on their hypocracy, volunteering for pro-RKBA efforts, sharing info in THR, encouraging new shooters, teaching children to shoot....

We need it all.

If you don't like the direction the NRA's going, get enough folks on your side and change course, don't sink the ship.
 
Mastrogiacomo
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Boston
Posts: 160
I've never been a member of the NRA, and as long as it doesn't interfere with my shooting range choices, I don't intend to. I don't need to see my money spend on promotional videos and magazines. Moreoever, I haven't seen the NRA helping out MA, NY, and NJ. They seem to only care about the southern half of the country so why bother? They don't make any difference where I live to make it worth my while to part with my money.

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Anybody ever wonder why gun rights are like they are in Mass?Just read the above. Don't worry Mastrogiacomo, some of us pro 2A people will carry your dead weight!
 
waterdog
Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: AZ
Posts: 63
They get all the lawyers off the payroll, and I will join.

The NRA is a money sponge, and are not taking advantage of the current situation, by promoting firearms training for citizens.

For days after 9/11, gun sales were off the scale.
They should have put flyers in every gun store, and retail outlets that sell firearms, and offered free firearms training.

Yeah they are a big lobby, but wining and dining, scumbag politicians, is inherently redundant, in my opinion.


----------------------------------------

No offence Waterdog, but that's the way the world works . Without the lawyers, they would have no teeth. These are the people that fight for your rights, whether you like them or not.
 
Quoting Waterdog:

"They get all the lawyers off the payroll, and I will join."

That's just nuts. Sorry, but they need MORE lawyers. Boatloads of lawyers, running pro-gun lawsuits in every state, every Circuit!

I've been to the NRA's law office in California, they're just swamped.
 
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