So what will be the next 'big' C&R rifle/handgun?

[FTF]

I know that most C&R eligible firearms are over 50 years old. That means that we are approaching the late 1950's era, and getting close to the 60's for firearms that we can get with our C&R's. I know we're not going to get AK's since they are selective fire etc... I guess the coolest and most recent things we can get are SKS's and CZ52's...

What should I be looking forward to with my C&R or are we pretty much always going to be relegated to wwI and wwII, early combloc surplus... the same stuff we have now?

 

[Trebor]

It's pretty much going to be more (or less) of the same. The supplies of the old bolt guns are going to dry up and there aren't that many importable semi-auto's behind them. Prices will start to climb when the guns will only be available on the secondary market.

One nice thing though is that more and more old Machine Guns will be added to the C&R list. Yes, you still have to go through the hoops associated with a Title II NFA transfer, but a C&R holder can buy a C&R machine gun and have it sent directly to him instead of having to go through a MG dealer. That cuts out one transfer and saves some paperwork and $200 for the tax stamp.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

My next C&R is gonna be the CZ-52
Superb craftsmanship,low price, cheap ammo and reliability - a winning combination in my book

 

[Manedwolf]

It just moves along with time. I was reading an article that mentioned that in the 1930's, Trapdoor Springfields were $5 in bins at surplus stores, so cheap that people made them into lamps.

And now look at the price. It's a cycle. Someday, everything state of the art will be C&R.

 

[Trebor]

Someday, everything state of the art will be C&R.

Yeah, but pretty much all military rifles since 1950 or so have been capable of full-auto fire. That means that they won't be available for us since they can't be imported if they are foreign rifles and can't be surplused out by the U.S. government if they are U.S. rifles. We'll never see surplus M-16's, for instance. The closest we can come are when rifles, like AK's, are demilled and sold as "parts kits" and even the restrictions on that are being tightened.

 

[berettaman]

Quote

One nice thing though is that more and more old Machine Guns will be added to the C&R list.

Perhaps the M16 and a very few other domesticlly made ones,but with the importation ban of full auto weapons it's highly unlikely.

 

[Gord]

This brings up an interesting question - what does the military do with phased-out weaponry?

I know that all/most/some Garands went into CMP rotation, but it's hard to imagine a zillion Thompsons being demilled and/or dumped into the ocean... but knowing the military, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what they did.

The reason I ask is because in, whatever, 20, 50 years, when we move on to the latest and greatest and dump the M-16... what's going to happen to 'em?

Maybe I'm being optimistic here, but if I had something like 3 million surplus M-16s, I'd certainly give thought to lifting the ban on autos and putting them up for civilian sale. For the first time, our main-issue battle rifle is select fire. Perhaps when it's turned to surplus, the military will see the opportunity to sell them for a few hundred bucks and infuse its budget with another several million dollars.

...yeah, I can dream.

 

[EvisceratorSrB]

Although the M16A2 is technically not fully auto, more than one round can pop out per trigger squeeze. You don't think that will be legal any time in the future, even with some sort of FFL license? (if somehow the m16a2 was given out as surplus)

 

[Gord]

Although the M16A2 is technically not fully auto

Yeah, but NFA applies to anything "above" semi - three-round burst, for example.

I dunno one way or the other - on the one hand, it's the .gov, but on the other, what are they honestly going to do with several million perfectly good M-16Axs after they're phased out? They're gonna have to either sell 'em, torch 'em or dip 'em in cosmo and bury 'em.

Edit: Or sell/give them to foreign allies, like Greece, but... several million?

 

[TexasRifleman]

As for C&R, when did Colt begin shipping ARs?

We should be getting close to the date for real ARs being C&R eligible shouldn't we?

 

[Trebor]

One nice thing though is that more and more old Machine Guns will be added to the C&R list.

Perhaps the M16 and a very few other domesticlly made ones,but with the importation ban of full auto weapons it's highly unlikely.

I didn't say that more old Machine Guns would be imported. That can't happen since no MG's can be imported for private civilian ownership, regardless of C&R status.

What I meant is that more of the MG's already listed on the NFA registry, and thus legal for civlians to own, would gain C&R status when they hit the 50 year mark. A MG that has C&R status is slightly easier to acquire for a C&R holder then a MG that isn't a C&R.

For instance, there are a handful of legally registered M-14's, AK 47's and EARLY Colt M-16's in private hands. Right now, as far as I know, none of those are old enough to qualify for C&R status yet. But, when they turn 50, they become C&R eligible. A C&R holder who lives in a machine-gun friendly state can buy them without having to go through a MG dealer. All the proper NFA paperwork and taxes are still required, but having the MG transfered right to the new C&R licensee owner saves at least one $200 transfer tax and cuts down the total time needed for the transfers.

All firearms at least 50 year olds are C&R eligible and this does include MG's.

Remember, by 2036, all NFA registered Machine Guns in private hands will be C&R eligible. That's because the NFA registry was closed in 1986 so all privately owned MG's are now at least 20 years old and many are already older then that.

 

[Trebor]

This brings up an interesting question - what does the military do with phased-out weaponry?

The U.S. military is no longer allowed to sell functioning weapons as surplus (except for some exceptions through the CMP). Now all surplus weapons are either destroyed, given to our allies as military assistance (that's where all the M-14's went, btw), or "loaned" to other units of government. Those weapons that are loaned to other units of government, such as the M-16's currently being given to local Police Departments, remain the property of the U.S. government and can't be sold by PD's that received the firearms.

know that all/most/some Garands went into CMP rotation, but it's hard to imagine a zillion Thompsons being demilled and/or dumped into the ocean... but knowing the military, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what they did.

The production of Thompsons, M-1 Carbines, M 3A1 Grease Guns and 1911A1 pistols ended when WWII ended. Those weapons remained in active U.S. service for many years later and many were just plain "used up" or combat lossed while in service.

Many more of these weapons were given away as military assistance to other governments over the years. Some went to Korea, some to Vietnam, and some to other governments.

And yes, the government did destroy a large portion of those weapons as they became "obsolete" and when they no longer wanted to store them. There a few "New in the wrap" Thompsons, BAR's, Carbines, etc, still on the Army books for use in military museums at the Army Historical Center in Anniston, but that's a relatively small number of survivors. Those will never make it into civilian hands though and most will never be publicly displayed.

The reason I ask is because in, whatever, 20, 50 years, when we move on to the latest and greatest and dump the M-16... what's going to happen to 'em?

The same thing that's happening to the M-16A1's that are surplus to requirements now. Some will be given to other parts of the government on loan, some will be given away as military assistance, and the rest will be destroyed. Remember, ever since 1986, no new machine guns can be added to the NFA registry for civilian ownership. The military couldn't release these to civvies even if they wanted to.

The only way the military can release weapons to the U.S. civilian population is through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. The CMP is specifically restricted as to what types of weapons it can accept. Full-auto and select-fire weapons are out, as are handguns.

 

[armoredman]

All I see is former "sniper" rifles from other countries becoming C&R, as most of those are bolts and semis.

 

[Trebor]

All I see is former "sniper" rifles from other countries becoming C&R, as most of those are bolts and semis

Yeah, that's a possibility. The problem is that there are so few "sniper rifles" in any countries inventory compared to regular rifles. There just aren't enough in military inventory to import them in any large number. If any make it here, they won't be cheap. Have you priced a Swede M 41 B sniper lately? Or a Brit sniper rifle?

 

[RobW]

You just forget that a healthy portion of "assault" weapons land in the hands of criminals. Records are VERY silent about this, but "lost" automatics are easily covered by "destroyed" papers. :banghead:

 

[AJAX22]

Those Druganov's are probably getting pretty close to being exempted.

 

[mp510]

Or a Brit sniper rifle?

After Desert Storm, the British surplused some AI AW rifles that made there way onto the US market.

 

[Gord]

(snip)

Thank you for the detailed explanation!

I suppose we're pretty much at the end of the rope for C&R firearms; everything that's left is select-fire.

 

[AJ Dual]

There are probably some significant supplies of Mosins, Enfields, and Mausers out there, and the SKS isn't quite obsolete enough for all of the former Eastern block nations to have gotten rid of all them just yet. And God knows what still lurking in South America.

Also, a lot of WWII stuff went to the third-world, where it might be waiting in some warehouse somewhere. Too "useless" in the face of the preferred AK's, AR's, and FAL's, but too "dangerous" to dispose of, lest the populace get a hold of it etc. Better to sell it to those crazy Americans for a little profit for some more AK's from China...

It'll never be like the post-WWII heyday of barrels of M1's and Mausers at Woolworths etc. but there's still some stuff out there waiting to be discovered. Some of the shrewder govt's that have played the surplus game before may even be waiting on the values to increase a bit...

In equal proportion to the various governments proclivity to cut, burn, and destroy surplus and dump the pieces in the ocean, they've got the contra-reflex to throw nothing away, ever. A trickle with some minor torrents will still show up from time to time for the next 30 years.

If not, Eastern Europe still has the tooling for lots of this stuff, and might start producing adequate knock-offs to fill the demand.

 

[History Prof]

This brings up an interesting question - what does the military do with phased-out weaponry?

CDNN and Cheaper Than Dirt are both selling the following:

Colt M-16 Upper Assembly Original US Gov't Colt M-16 upper with bayonet lug, flash hider, carry handle top and gas port front sight assembly, complete with early triangular forearm, forward assist and dual aperture A1 rear sight. These were pulled directly off brand new Colt M-16 rifles and the receivers were destroyed.
-http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR115-47462-1888.html

 

[Gord]

If not, Eastern Europe still has the tooling for lots of this stuff, and might start producing adequate knock-offs to fill the demand.

I'd kill for a new-production Makarov.

 

[Trebor]

I'd kill for a new-production Makarov.

There were some new production Makarovs made for commercial sales in Germany in the early to mid '90s. I can't recall the manufacturers name, but they were imported to the U.S. They are collectable now, so there kind of hard to find and pricey when you do find them, but they are out there.

There have also been Russian maks made for the commercial market under the Baikal name. I don't think any are still being imported though.

 

[Gord]

I'd prefer something on a mass-production scale, but then again I doubt there's much of a market for heavy, underpowered blowbacks like the Mak. From a practical standpoint, nothing the Bersa can't do with much less heft.

I'm just a stickler for milsurps. I wish they were still makin' guns like they used to - can't beat a heavy, solid chunk of steel that works every time.