More C&R questions from a former C&R holder.

[Czar]

Hey all-

I've read a lot of threads lately discussing C&R and that’s got me to thinking about C&R again and I had some questions for my situation.

I had a C&R a few years ago (2001-2004) and I let it lapse since I barely had time to shoot, much less time to buy any new toys at that time. I purchased several firearms with my C&R and I still have my log for that license.

Also, I have a few other C&R eligible firearms I've purchased through a combo of Type 01 FFL, and FTF transfers.

I still have all C&R firearms I purchased through all means.

I've read info which has me confused as to what I would need to do if I get a new C&R FFL. What I'm specifically confused about is: would I have to log the C&R eligible firearms I already own on the new license? It doesn't make sense, but considering a government agency is involved I know it doesn't need to make sense in order to still be the case.

Any other pitfalls I should look out for? Any other major considerations I need to take into account other than the hurt it will place on my bank account?


I appreciate the advice!!!

 

[hksw]

would I have to log the C&R eligible firearms I already own on the new license?

Yes, regardless if the gun was obtained before your new C&R or if it was obtained without using your new C&R. If it is C&R eligible (regardless of when and how it was obtained), it must be recorded in your book.

would I have to log the C&R eligible firearms I already own on the new license?

As I'm sure you've probably known from your first C&R, don't bother wasting your money on those kits that you see advertised in a few places geared for licensing.

 

[dogtown tom]

hksw Quote:

Czar quote: ...would I have to log the C&R eligible firearms I already own on the new license?...

Yes, regardless if the gun was obtained before your new C&R or if it was obtained without using your new C&R. If it is C&R eligible (regardless of when and how it was obtained), it must be recorded in your book.

Uhhh...........not exactly.

You only need to log those Curio & Relic firearms that are obtained while you hold a Curio & Relic License.

For example:

I bought a Colt Woodsman .22 in 1975.
I bought a Remington Model 51 in 1973.
Both are Curio & Relic eligible firearms.

I obtained my C&R License in 2006.

I bought a FN Model 1922 pistol in 2008 with my C&R on Gunbroker.
I bought another Remington Model 51 pistol at a 2008 gunshow without using my C&R license.

The only firearms I am required to log are the last two.

*********************
The OP has his old (2001-2004) C&R logs.

From the BATFE FAQ's on Curio & Relics:

Are licensed collectors required to turn in their acquisition/disposition records to ATF if their collector's license is not renewed or they discontinue their collecting activity?

No. The GCA requires the delivery of required records to the Government within 30 days after a firearm "business" is discontinued. A license as a collector of curios or relics does not authorize any business with respect to firearms. This is in contrast to firearm importers, manufacturers, and dealers who are licensed to engage in a firearms business. Therefore, the records required to be kept by licensed collectors under the law and regulations are not business records and are not required to be turned in to ATF when collectors' licenses are not renewed or collecting activity under such licenses is discontinued.
[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(4), 27 CFR 178.127]

 

[Soybomb]

ou only need to log those Curio & Relic firearms that are obtained while you hold a Curio & Relic License.

Don't forget if you acquire a C&R eligible gun while you are without a license but dispose of it while you are licensed it must be logged.

 

[Czar]

As I'm sure you've probably known from your first C&R, don't bother wasting your money on those kits that you see advertised in a few places geared for licensing.

I was actually cheaper than that, at the time, I worked for a Type01 FFL and I used their log books as a template and made my own in Excel. That way I had an ink origional and a digital copy - my handwriting is chicken scratch. They had extra fields in addition to the required fields for such things as SKU, cost, price sold, and other info they used for business purposes. I liked that format so I could track how much I spent and which whom without grabbing recipts.

Thanks for the info. I didn't want to walk blindly into trouble so I appreciate the help! It must be a sign, my ATF forms showed up today!!!

 

[hksw]

Uhhh...........not exactly.

You only need to log those Curio & Relic firearms that are obtained while you hold a Curio & Relic License.

dogtown, could you please indicate where in the Regulations Reference Guide it is noted that recording is only necessary of items purchased only during the duration of the active license? As I read it, the regs seem to be general enough that it can be interpreted as to include items that were purchased before the license is obtained. (When taking into consideration which way the ATF will go if a question comes up concerning records, I would personally prefer to have and not need than to need and not have.)

 

[CDignition]

If youre worried about it, just enter your current firearms in your log book.. wont take u long.

 

[Niner]

Now I'm confused

I hold the same opinion as Dogtown Tom. It's been said multiple places that new license holders need not post information on weapons acquired previous to a C&R to the "bound book"....like at Cruffler.com. Look at the bottom two frequently asked questions...http://www.cruffler.com/legal-March-00.html
It would make no sense to me to post information on a weapon owned before acquiring a C&R in the bound book unless it is disposed of while having the license. Particularly when a license holder can prove such weapons were acquired before the license was obtained. But I can't find anything in the official regulations that speak to the question one way or the other.

 

[jwr747]

I think 27CFR 178.125(F) explaines the rules of C&R weapons befor license. no requirement to log items bought before date of C&R license.if one is sold after license,item must be logged out.no need to log it in,just do the disposition part of the bound book. jwr

ps: you can look thru the CFR material or that gob of books you get with the license. usually it's easier to find it the FAQ sections.

 

[Niner]

Thanks

I picked up a 2000 issue regulations book that stops with 178.125e...no f.

 

[stolivar]

? do you still have the old log book

If you do, just use it. The problem here is if you don't I would think that any C&R that was logged in on the old C&R should still be logged if you get another one.


steve


If all else fails write to BATF and get a written response.

 

[alemonkey]

How about if you buy a C&R eligible rifle, but on a regular (non C&R) sale at the local gunshop? Do those need to be logged? I've heard conflicting info on that.

 

[Soybomb]

How about if you buy a C&R eligible rifle, but on a regular (non C&R) sale at the local gunshop? Do those need to be logged? I've heard conflicting info on that.

Any C&R eligible gun acquired or disposed of while you have a license must be logged.

 

[stolivar]

yes

Any C&R you collect while you have the license must be logged.


steve

 

[dogtown tom]

hksw: dogtown, could you please indicate where in the Regulations Reference Guide it is noted that recording is only necessary of items purchased only during the duration of the active license?

The regulations only mention the logging of C&R firearms (acquired and disposed of) while you hold a C&R license. C&R regulations do not apply to anyone but those who hold a C&R License.

According to the highlighted text below you have until the end of the next business day to record any acquisitions. Impossible if you already own the firearm.

The following passage is cut and pasted from the BATFE website.

§ 178.125 Record of receipt and disposition (f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in [§ 27 C.F.R 178.125] (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction....more.

If you own C&R eligible firearms prior to your obtaining a C&R License, you CANNOT meet the above requirement. If you SELL one of your previously owned C&R firearms you are required to log that firearm.

i recently applied for an 01FFL. During my in home interview, I asked about logging the sale of any of my current personal firearms in the A&D Logbook once I get my 01FFL. "No, but it wouldn't hurt..." was the answer. Personal guns are just that. Any firearms I obtain WITH MY 01FFL must be logged in the bound book. the agent recommended using a seperate safe for personal firearms or tagging them to identify which are "business" and which are "personal".