So what's the point

[Flashpoint]

There are a lot of threads everywhere talking about the effectiveness of one caliber over another. From what I have seen it boils down to two types of people. One type of people being the "Lots of rounds, fast bullet" cheering for the 9MM. The second being the "Big bullet knocks big holes and has smaller risk of over penetration" people cheering for the .45 cal ACP. I have found very few if any people claiming the .40 cal S&W to be there round of choice. Most people don't have anything good to say about the round. So what's the point of the round being used, or even developed. Also if so many people consider it such an unnecessary or inferior round why do so many LEOs us it.

Disclaimer: The above description of the two types of people is not the end all be all. Just a general description of what I have noticed.


I will not put on my flack jacket and flame suit.

Croyance,
Thanks for catching what my tired eyes and spell checker did not.

 

[David4516]

You forgot group #3: the ".32 ACP is the best round because I don't want to carry a big .45" group. There is some truth to this, a .25 ACP in the pocket beats a .50 AE in the safe...

 

[Croyance]

Flame suite? A large hotel room where all my luggage ends up burned to cinders? A euphamism (sp?) for chambers in Auschwitz?
A few points for the .40 S&W:
It gives larger capacity than the .45 ACP while punching larger holes than a 9*19.
I believe it meets FBI criteria set after the infamous and overanalyzed Miami shootout.
Sales - it appeals to those who have to have the newest thing, as well as those who want to have what the police have.

According to some, it is a large bore round, and certainly gun writers have been pushing it as such. Effective or not, I have trouble seeing it as a large bore round.

Some police units have it because it was the newest thing, and touted as an effective comprimise between the .45 ACP and 9 mm. More magazine capacity than the one, more power than the other.
Remember, police are people. They are also suceptible to sales pitches. They also want the newest toys.
Many police departments will choose based on what the FBI uses. After all, they run all those tests and stuff.

 

[ACP230]

The .40 S&W has about the same ballistics as the original .41 Magnum "Police Load." The cops who actually used the .41 Police Load seemed fairly happy with it.

I have a .40 S&W Taurus auto squirreled away. I shot it a couple of times with Cor-Bon .40 JHPs and found it LOUD and snappy in recoil. It was louder than the .45 ACP I shot in Bowling Pin matches and in a gun I liked a lot less than my Colts and Para-Ordnance .45s. I haven't shot it in some time and still have part of the first box of ammo. If I was already set up to reload .40 it might be different.

One unanticipated use for the .40 S&W is in a Smith 10mm. I have heard that the fastest way to reload one of the M610 revolvers is to use .40 S&W ammo in a speedloader. I can't say I've seen anyone do it, but it sounds like it would work fine for a quick reload in IDPA.

 

[Tamara]

One unanticipated use for the .40 S&W is in a Smith 10mm. I have heard that the fastest way to reload one of the M610 revolvers is to use .40 S&W ammo in a speedloader.

You mean a moonclip, right? Since the 10mm rounds in the gun headspace on the case mouth, a .40 round would kinda fall all the way into the cylinder unless moonclips were used.

 

[Nightcrawler]

The .40 S&W has about the same ballistics as the original .41 Magnum "Police Load." The cops who actually used the .41 Police Load seemed fairly happy with it.

If I'm not mistaken, the "Police Load" for .41 Magnum was a 210 grain bullet at 1100 feet per second. That's quite a bit healthier than what .40 can do. The "Highway Patrol" load, of course, was full-house .41 Magnum, 210 grains at 1300+ feet per second (I've heard it was almost 1500 fps, but that seems high).

 

[Standing Wolf]

Now you know why I pack a .357 magnum: the nine millimeter is too light; the .45 A.C.P. is too slow, and the .44 magnum comes in guns I can't conceal comfortably.

 

[Soap]

In my humble opinion there are two groups as well:

1) Those who debate 9mm vs. .40 vs. 10mm vs .45ACP vs. .357 ad nausea

2) Those who have made their choices and train with their gear.

 

[New_comer]

So what's the point of the round being used, or even developed

I keep on reading that the 40S&W is the answer to a question that was never asked...

Maybe it is so, maybe not. But I have to concede that it does have its followers.

The cult of the .40... there's your third group, I think...

 

[Shmackey]

Also if so many people consider it such an unnecessary or inferior round why do so many LEOs us it.

Because they don't take the time to learn to shoot the real .40-caliber round, the 10mm.

 

[New_comer]

I'd call that the "Goldilocks' mentality:


"That's too big; but this one's too small. Let make one that's just right..."


I could already see down the road, either a .425 or a .377 shoved down the market's throat, if only for the same line of reasoning...

 

[Oracle]

The truth, Flashpoint, is that it doesn't really matter. Out of the available self-defense calibers, if you use decent expanding ammunition, are about equal in terms of "stopping power". Try the different calibers and platforms out, and find one that you prefer. Then train often with it, get professional training if you can. That's the best solution to being able to adequately defend yourself and your loved ones.

 

[iluvG.R.I.T.S]

The two guns i carry most or in .40 a smith and wesson Chief's Special and a Taurus Millennum.

 

[New_comer]

Oh, and I forgot....


This is what my sig line has been all about...

 

[Mike Irwin]

I personally am in the "gimmie a gun, any gun, it's better than a rock" camp...

 

[E357]

The FBI needed an excuse for its poor tactics in the Miami Shootout so they blamed the ammo and came up with the 10mm as the answer. In a short time they realized that the 10 was too much gun for their agents. So they switch their Special Agents to an 10mm Special AKA the .40 S&W which is easier shooting and can be fitted into most 9mm sized handguns. Once the FBI started using the 40, Local Police were sure to follow. Manufacturers loved the 40 and pushed this round because it allowed selling a whole new weapon to Gov't agencies while only doing a slide change.

Elliot

 

[Flashpoint]

What happened in the "Miami Shootout" that constituted a whole new round of ammo?

 

[E357]

Here's some statistics on the gunshots in The Miami Shootout. The movie is a very good account of the overall mess. Movie - The FBI Murders.

The FBI decided to take down two well armed (.223's etc) thugs in the middle of a suburban Miami street in the middle of the day without a plan and without firepower and with no reason as to why they couldn't wait for a better time. They said their 9mm were no good. As it turns out a 38 snubby finished the shootout.

Elliot

 

[Sean Smith]

What I found scary about that whole encounter, from a hardware point of view, was how consistently head shots with the .38 Special +P failed to produce a significant effect on the target. Each of the bad guys took at least one to the head at short range, and in both cases they inflicted non-fatal, non-incapacitating wounds. Pretty scary stuff... just goes to show how handguns, even with seemingly ideal hits, are really just weak weapons of last resort. That should have been the real hardware-related lesson of the encounter.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

If someone asked me to pick between a glock in .45, or a 1911 in 9mm, i'd pick the 1911.


I'm more concerned with the platform and how it fits me than caliber or capacity configurations.

 

[grenadier]

A true 10 mm load (not the FBI-lite) will give .41 magnum performance, and even then, will approximate the lower to middle areas of the .41 magnum's performance range.

As for the efficacy of a certain caliber over another, as long as you do your part, and place the shot, while selecting a proven premium load that is reliable in your gun, then the cartridge will do the job quite nicely.

 

[Delmar]

I figure the loads in a 10MM are pretty stout, but from what I have looked at, and this is going back some years, the 10 has about 100 or so fps over the best loads in a 45 ACP. Has this changed all that much???

 

[Flashpoint]

E357,

Thanks for the link. No wonder I never heard of the shoot out, I was 11 years old when it happened.

 

[Dave T]

First, the performance of the 40 S&W doesn't duplicate the 41 Mag which was a 210g bullet at 900+ fps. The 40 actually duplicates the black powder performance of the 38 WCF (more commonly known as the 38-40) which fired a 40 caliber, 180g bullet at about 950 fps from a SAA revolver. A friend of mine calls the 40 S&W the "38-40 Straight - Rimless - Smokeless".

Second, the 40 is a compromize where bullet wieght and velocity split the difference between the 9mm and the 45 ACP. As with most compromizes it does neither job as well as the original. On the other hand, it is popular with law enforcement because it gives a slightly larger and heavier bullet in a smaller gun that fits a wider variety of shooter's hands.

 

[Sean Smith]

I figure the loads in a 10MM are pretty stout, but from what I have looked at, and this is going back some years, the 10 has about 100 or so fps over the best loads in a 45 ACP. Has this changed all that much???

Well, let's see...

200gr 10mm: 1,200-1,250 ft/sec (640 ft-lbs) with factory ammo
200gr .45 ACP+P: 1,050 ft/sec (490 ft-lbs) with factory ammo

180gr 10mm: 1,320 ft/sec (696 ft-lbs) with factory ammo
185gr .45 ACP+P: 1,150 ft/sec (543 ft-lbs) with factory ammo

155gr 10mm: 1,350-1,375 ft/sec (627-651 ft-lbs) with factory ammo
165gr .45ACP+P: 1,250 ft/sec (573 ft-lbs) with factory ammo

Of course, these comparisons don't tell the whole story. Comparing sectional desnities, the 10mm loads you should compare to .45 ACP loads runs something like this...

200gr 10mm ~ 250gr .45
180gr 10mm ~ 230gr .45
155gr 10mm ~ 200gr .45
135gr 10mm ~ 165gr .45

With that in mind, the energy gap between 10mm and .45 ACP at a given sectional density is even bigger than the above comparisons suggests. Making a more sensible comparison, 230gr .45 ACP+P maxes out at 950 ft/sec and 461 ft/lbs, or 235 ft/lbs behind the Cor-Bon 180gr 10mm load. On the old ballistics tables Cor-Bon used to have up, that load had more energy at 100 yards than .45 ACP+P typically has at the muzzle. Hence the common statement that 10mm is a better hunting cartridge than .45 ACP.