"Soft" hammer on Pietta revolver?

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Steve499

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My Pietta 1858 Remington is going to require a new hammer, I'm afraid. I noticed last night that the "ball bearing" feel my gun had possessed had, as they say across the pond, "gone missing" The first 1/2 inch of travel when the hammer was cocked was draggy and gritty. I took it down and found the cam on the hammer worn through the case hardening and becoming burred and misshapen. The cylinder stop or bolt wasn't worn at all where it engages the hammer cam so I assume it's harder than the hammer is! My gun is a 2004 model . I understand Pietta made some changes to greatly improve the quality of their products some time ago. Anyone have an idea when that was? I had no complaints about this gun before now. It shoots better than I can.

Steve
 
Steve, Mine are about 7years old or a little more and I had to case harden the hammer's myself and have had no problems with them. It seems to me that Pietta changed there machines around 2002. That doeasn't mean that they did a better case hardening job.
My new Pietta 51 Navy is called the case hardened model and it sure is! I tried to widen the rear sight notch on the hammer and it about took the teeth off the file,Lol. The frame that they claim is case hardened is not and only looks that way. They used to use burning leather and oil on the gun to give it that appearance years ago.
 
Dragoon, the cam on the hammer in mine is part of the hammer, or at least I think it is. You got me thinking so I went to my Dixie catalog and the only hammer parts I find are the roller and roller pin. Is that what you were meaning? Even if the cam came out, I wouldn't get the replacement back in right. It's a law!

Beartracker, a new hammer is about $12.00. I may have to harden the new one if it seems to be poorly case hardened. I have never used Kasenit, but I assume it is a little easier than wrapping the hammer in leather and bone dust and welding it up in a metal box for heating? Actually, since my gun is timed so well, I'm glad the hammer wore and not the cylinder stop (Dixie's term) or bolt(my term). Fitting a new bolt would challenge my all thumbs gunsmithing tecnique which usually results in me needing double replacement parts since I usually mess up my first attempt.

Steve
 
Steve, I don't believe you will have any problem with case hardening anything:) I just used a torch and went by color.It must have been right because I've had no problems with either of them.
Don't forget that you can buy that kit from Cabelas that includes the hammer and everything else you need.
 
Beartracker said:
Steve, I don't believe you will have any problem with case hardening anything:) I just used a torch and went by color.It must have been right because I've had no problems with either of them.
Don't forget that you can buy that kit from Cabelas that includes the hammer and everything else you need.
Click to expand...

Tell me about case hardening.:)

I have an old Dixie Remington of unknown mfg. The parts I bought don't fit, but if I can polish and harden the sear, I should be able to fix it.

Do you use Kasenit or something else?
 
ArmedBear, There are several different way of case hardening but this is the easiest I know of and it works great when you want something like a hammer to really be hard.
You need a gold set of torches or mepp gas for anything like a hammer or thicker or bigger piece of steel. It should be heated to about 1500 degrees and they claim that when it reches cherry red all the way through it's at about that 1500. Make sure you have it suspended from a couple of wires and that you have a way of picking it up with the wires . Then you need to have some car motor oil ready to dip the part into it and let it cool in the oil.It will take a while and believe me you don't want to try to pick it up any time soon ....Don't ask me how I know:banghead:
On a small part like your talking about you may be able to heat that cherry red with a small propane torch. Hope this helps.
Steve is the guy who can tell you about any of the other methods. They may even be better but I like the fst way of doing things ;)
 
Mike,

Don't ask how you know?

I'll bet you picked a hot one up and dropped it, and the guy over there said "Hot, huh?", and you said "Nope, just don't take me long to look at a hammer."

Joke.

Cheers,

George
 
ArmedBear, case hardening is the process of adding carbon to the first few thousandths of the surface of mild steel. As I understand it, in days gone by it was much easier to machine soft steel, or steel with little carbon in it. When, as in a firearm, a tougher surface was needed to resist wear but the piece couldn't be brittle, they would harden only the surface by placing the part in a metal box along with leather scraps, bone chips, or any of several other combinations of high carbon material. The box was heated for varying amount of time, depending on the size of the part. The material inside the box would produce a high carbon gas as it tried to burn in the low oxygen content inside the box. That loose carbon impregnates the surface of the steel making only the outer surface high carbon. When the part reaches the desired temperature it is quenched in water covered with oil which can have other stuff added to create the swirling colors we see on pistol frames, for instance. The quenching process makes the outer surface glass hard but leaves the subsurface metal, which has too little carbon to temper, soft.

I have never case hardened anything but I have a forge and there's no reason I can't make myself a small metal box and give it a whirl. As far as kasenit goes, I've not used it, either, so I'm unfamiliar with exactly how one goes about using it. I would imagine, though, that it's probably substantially easier to use than the old method.

The problem with case hardening today is you usually have little idea what the actual composition of the metal is. If a part is made of relatively high carbon steel it may be soft only because it has been annealed, or heated and allowed to cool without quenching. If you attempt to case harden it, it will appear to work fine but in actuality is glass hard all the way through, resulting in a brittle part. If you've ever dropped a file onto concrete, that's what you'll have. To learn whether the part you want to harden has enough carbon in it to harden without going through the case hardening process. heat it to a bright cherry red and quench it in water or oil. Hold it submerged until it is cool enough to handle, then try to file it with a new, sharp metal file. If the file cuts, you have too little carbon to temper and case hardening is the way you need to go to harden the surface. If the file just skitters and chatters on the surface, won't cut at all, you have a piece of metal which you've just tempered to about the same hardness (and brittleness) as the file itself. In that case, you need to take some other steps to remove some of the brittleness while retaining some of the hardness.

With a small part like you mentioned, a regular old propane torch and a saucepan of water should let you know if it can be hardened in just a couple of minutes.

Steve
 
Materials and instructions to do color case-hardening is available from Brownells (www.brownells.com) and Kasinet as well.

The problem with bone & charcoal (color) case hardening is that parts may warp when they are quenched. This is particularly true with larger parts that have thin walls or cross-sections. Kasinet will harden both low and high carbon steel, provided one follows the directions. But you do have to know which you are working with. Many, if not all of the current crop of cap & ball revolver hammers are investment cast, and if the bolt nub wears off of the hammer it might be best to replace the entire part. However before you do anything use a strong magnafying glass on the opposite side of the hammer and look for signs of a pressed in pin. If this is the case you have an option of driving out the old nub (bolt cam), replacing it with a pin, and shapping a new nub. I have done this on older S.A.A. and Cap & Ball hammers, but usually replace replica ones.
 
Old Fuff,

Quenching the heated part is an art unto itself. Well, that may be a little extreme, but you do have to know what you are doing.

If you take something long and thin, like a sword, or even a spring, and heat then drop flat into the quenching medium, water, brine, oil, whatever, the side that hits the quench first will cool the soonest and warp that way, turning into a really broad "C" that way. For something like that you would drop it in point, or end, first, cool both sides and both edges at the same rate. Agitation helps, too, as you will form a barrier of steam at the boundary of metal and quench and cool too slowly.

Gotta go to the books for any further info. Think you do not need a welded box for case hardening. It can actually go about 1/4 inch deep, but for that you need induction heat.

Cheers,

George
 
True... Quenching not only effects hardness, but colors (if there are any) also. The value of antiques frequently is based on the number and condition of its original parts. Therefore it is usually financially rewarding if you can rebuild or restore the parts. This sometimes involves welding and recutting notches or the bolt nub/cam on the hammer. On the 19th century ones the nub was a separate part press fit into the hammer. On modern reproductions the hammer and nub are often investment cast as one piece.

I'll sometimes take the time and make the effort to rebuild the older hammers, but replace them in replicas. Fortunately small parts are much easier to heat treat and quench then a blade.

I am now likely out of the hammer rebuilding business because my welder - who did outstanding work, passed away last month.
 
Old Fuff,

Ain't that the truth?

At the gunshow, Saturday, was at a dealer who had Win 73 parts, some of the rustiest parts I have ever seen, and they were like 200 bucks per part.

A rusty assed butt plate, 175 bucks, links, 85 bucks a side, etc, etc.

Friend of mine, actually the boss who hired me into maintenance 25 years ago, is a collector and seller of old ammunition. Asked him if he ever had any original Colt cartridges, the foil types, Patterson and maybe Walker, I forget what the deal was, not sure if I have the book or read it on linne.

Innyhoo, he said yes, he had one the last year, lead foil, sold it to a German buyer for 700 USD.

Also said they were fragile, had another, dropped it, splattered all over the floor. There goes 700 bucks.

Asked him if he had any Rem .46 Rimfires, the original bored through cartridge, looked a little bit, said here you are!

Damn, they were long cartridges, for those days. Didn't ask him what they were going for, din't really want to know, I think I pay too much for the stuff I shoot.

Wow. Why didn't I get into that kind of stuff 40 years ago?

Too soon old and too late shmart?

Cheers,

George
 
A few years back I got into makeing knives and bought my flat stock steel from a foundry in Ill. and do all the shaping and heat treating myself. If you don't heat treat the steel and the finished blade just right the knife would be worthless. I got to the point where I could judge the heating process just by color. Dipping just right and chasing the color takes time and prctice. Warping a blade could be done quickly if you started day dreaming but it is fixable.
Real case hardening was/is considered an art form by master smiths. If your really good it can be a beautiful finish also. There are also ways of faking it and it doesn't give a real case hardening,, just look's good . Some of the gun's I've seen with so called case hardening was not hardened at all or very little.
 
Cartridges.

Collecting cartridges from the frontier era is fun, and some examples are not all that expensive. You just picked the wrong ones to look at... :what:

Now if you'd been around during the 19th Century Like the Old Fuff :D you'd know that those paper/foil cartridges were carried in a little leather box that had a block of wood inside with holes drilled to fit the cartridge(s). To load, you would grasp the cartridge by the bullet's nose, pull it out of the box, and insert the back end into the chamber just prior to ramming it home. Any other way would leave you with the paper or foil case ruptured long before you could use it. This is one reason so few of them have survived until today.
 
Old Fuff,

Hell, I was there, too, bud. Gettin' up there.

Yeah, it would be interesting to someone who has the inclination for it. I was never a collector of anything, more's the shame, as a lot of things I have owned have become collectibles. Most of the things I keep are my tools and my guns, never sold a tool, haven't sold a gun since about 1968, and wish I hadn't then, a Simpson and Suhl single shot .22 Hornet, a Marlin 39a, lever .22, a Winchester 71, .348, and a Browning Auto 5, in 12 guage. Wish I had them all.

Did trade a Rem 1100 Trap model on a Browning Superposed at a shoot in Ohio, consider that an upgrade. Had 3 stolen from me. All the others in the last 40 years, I still have and intend to let the kids sell after I die.

Cartridges, should look at the ones I have in the drawers in the garage, see if they have any value.

I'm a pack rat, don't throw anything away. Often stands me in good stead. Someone needs something, "Let me look, I think I have one." Usually do. Takes a little time to find, but do in a short time.

Cheers,

George
 
Steve,

Heat it to orange, about 1830 degrees, till a magnet won't attract it, then quench quickly. That's the critical point. From there you go by the charts to see what heat you want to go to to draw the temper you want.
It takes a skill to determine what "straw" color and the rest are. Better is either a temp stick or a pyrometer.

Pack the piece in crumbled charcoal, briquettes, would, I assume, work, heat to about 1830 for 12 to 24 hours, allow to cool, then temper. Case should be from 1/32 to 1/16 deep. Thin section, like a hammer, might be like a piece of glass, so mebbe less time.

I'm reading form a 1915 and 1929 book, so mebbe there is a faster way, but I am not sure Kasenite is better..

Have to go to Brownell's and see what they have to say.

Cheers,

George
 
Beartracker ... nothing like the good ole finger test ...:fire: been there too many times .and probally will again . :cuss:
 
Just like deer hunting, patience! While part cools is GREAT time to nap, have lunch, roll a smoke, take a drive, etc. Just ONCE for this kid! Part aint going noplace!
 
Speaking of Pietta revolvers...

My stepson's .36 caliber Remington has that peened hammer problem, too. I can tell immediately that it was due to somebody dry firing it on an empty chamber nipple, because there's a nice impression of the nipple on the hammer face. I will have to grind the hammer flats back to original width for it to function smoothly through the frame notch again.

It appears to me the origian; color case hardening was mostly cosmetic, as peened as the hammer was through the stuff. So after I grind it back to specs, I will propane torch it to a cherry glow, and quench it either in clean motor oil or olive oil, and not worry too much about the pretty colors afterwards.

The boy now knows to never dry-fire the gun empty.
 
The reproductions I'm aware of have "case-colors" of a sort, but they are not case hardened.

I think that over the years Colt changed their bone-and-carcoal process. The colors you see on original 1851 Navy's that still have some original finish are different then those seen on SAA revolvers today.
 
G98 and Old Fuff,

I think you guys might have the wrong idea what case hardening IS.

It's not hardening the hammer, it's about a 6 thou or so hard skin over a soft and tough interior. Most is done to a low carbon steel, 1/4 % Carbon is considered too high, as it can get too hard and brittle after tempering.

The hammers you guys have, and I have on a '58 that shows a ring on the hammer face, and pooched out cheeks, are probably normal, and if you look at the nipples, if they haven't been replaced, they should show mushroom at least as much as the hamme, if it was dryfiring that you're blaming.

Next time you clean, take the hammer and a small file and take a swipe at a place you can't see, see how hard it seems to be, like the file skittering over the surface, just barely cutting at all. They don't localize their hardening, it's all over, and this is good, it means the hammer screw hole, the "bearing" , is cased, too. Good for the hammer and the screw's life expectancy.

I wonder what Smith and Ruger use for their hammers. My blued Smiths seem to be color cased, my nickled 29, 10 to 15 years newer, seems to be Parkerized, and, of course, my SS Ruger Super B is stainless.

Ah, well.

Cheers,

George
 
Gewehr98,
I have the same problem with my Euroarms Rem New Army. I picked it up on a trade and have several problems with it. First, the hammer nose won't fall into the safety notches in the cylinder! Second, the hammer face has been peened as you describe on your son's .36!
I see no evidence of peening on the nipples so I suspect that the hammer is not hardened enough.
In the second case the heel of the hammer is contacting the rear of the cylinder, preventing the hammer nose from dropping into the safety notch.

I think I will grind off the heel (bottom) of the hammer so that it will allow the nose to drop into the notches. Then, I will grind the sides of the hammer to remove the nipple peening.
After this, I will place the hammer on a plate of finely crushed lava rock and heat it until it is cherry red and then drop it into a can of motor oil until it cools.
An old machinist friend taught me to case harden in this way. He would also hot blue by burning off the oil with a torch and re-dunking the part several times.
I am open for suggestions and comments!
 
gmatov:

Rest assured that I know what case handening really is... :)

In original Colt cap & ball revolvers and S.A.A.'s made up to shortly after World War One - or a bit later, (I can't look up the exact date at the moment) the whole hammers were bone & charcoal case hardened. The bolt cam was also hardened, but a seperate piece press fit into the hammer.

More recent clones sometimes have hammers that are investment cast and the cam is part of the hammer. Most of these are case harden colored but not color case hardened.

In some the material can be case hardened (corlor or otherwise), while in other cases it is better to use a heat & quench method. But as they come out-of-the-box they are way too soft.

If the problem is restricted to the softness of the bolt cam this can sometimes can be spot hardened, but usually when the condition is discovered too much damage has been done, and it becomes a matter of either replacing or rebuilding the cam, or replacing the whole hammer. Usually it is less trouble to replace the hammer, but it will likely be as soft as the one it replaces.

What method is used to correct the softness depends on what steel alloy the hammer (or whatever) is made of.
 
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