I've sighted my custom M44 Scout Rifle in with Silver Bear 7.62x54R 203 Grain SP ammo. I'm confident with the rifle out to about 150yards and it could do better than that in more capable hands. If you want to hunt with a Mosin the Silver Bear ammo is a good choice IMHO as it has been very consitent for me.
Soft point or FMJ?
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Harley Quinn
Member
I bought a box of 7.62x54R full metal jacket today and was wondering if the soft points or the FMJ were better for hunting.
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What are you shooting? Humans or a species that has to be tagged?
HQ
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What are you shooting? Humans or a species that has to be tagged?
HQ
jordan1948
Member
It's illegal to hunt with FMJ here in TX
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
+1
It is illegal in most states to hunt game animals with FMJ.
It is inhumane in all states to hunt anything with FMJ ammo.
rcmodel
It is illegal in most states to hunt game animals with FMJ.
It is inhumane in all states to hunt anything with FMJ ammo.
rcmodel
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
can't use FMJ here in N. Calinky. no doubt it will kill but take awhile to do it. chances of run-offs are high.
I'm looking for regs to come that will outlaw round-nose cast slugs also and I don't blame them.
I'm looking for regs to come that will outlaw round-nose cast slugs also and I don't blame them.
Rokman
Member
Definately soft points. Do yourself and the animal a favor and use somthing that will sufficiently expand.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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That's a pretty neat trick - who makes those?
Rokman
Member
CCI makes fmj for 17HMR, but they shoot poorly in my fifle as compared to the ballistic tips.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Sorry, no, neither CCI nor anyone make an FMJ in .17 HMR. CCI has a hollow point and a ballistic tip. Perhaps you are thinking the ballistic tip is an FMJ?
As has been mentioned, the answer to the original question, very simply and very emphatically, is a good soft point ammo.
As has been mentioned, the answer to the original question, very simply and very emphatically, is a good soft point ammo.
moooose102
Member
well, if you hit the animal solidy, the animal will die. period. it is that simple. be it a fmj, soft point, or hollow point. besides the legality, the biggest difference is going to be how far you will have to track it, and how good of a tracker you really are. for me, i want it to drop in it's tracks, if possible. so i hunt with soft points or HUNTING hollow points depending on what i am shooting. you will probably want to do the same. it isnt going to be any fun trying to get your animal out of a 2 or 3 foot deep swamp in the middle of november.
NCsmitty
Member
You have to be a little ignorant not to realize that FMJ bullets are illegal because they are less effective on thin skin game than expanding bullets. Will they kill? Most definitely.
The Geneva rules of war dictates the use of FMJ to avoid the damage caused by expanding bullets.
It comes down to using the proper bullet for the job.
NCsmitty
Clipper
Member
No rule against FMJ in Michigan...
Clipper
Member
Yup, in the U.P. and northern lower peninsula
Rokman
Member
Premium Sauces- I beg to differ. I quess that you have never been over to my house and looked in my ammo stash. I have a box of CCI 17 HMR fmj sitting in front of me right now. The model # is 0055. I bought them about two years ago and they may have been discontinued.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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I find this kind of talk in defense of FMJ pretty ridiculous/misleading....
Well, let's see, if you are on one side of a deer when you see it, there are 180 different angles from you to the deer, at which you may be oriented when shooting. Regardless of a stationary ENTRY point on the near side being exactly where you want it (on the near shoulder as you say), only about 10 of those 180 degrees will result in the bullet exiting at the far shoulder when it exits. The other 170 degrees will NOT result in this happening. This doesn't even take into account the many angles up and down which could cause the exit wound to not be in that spot.
Sure, if you precisely hit bone, which is not easy to do, because there is a hole just above the "elbow", around which the other bones go, and you cannot see through the skin where the bone precisely is. Besides that, it's just hard to make a perfect hit exactly where you want to under field conditions, even if you know precisely where all the bones are located.
This is real simple. You are being unethical if you use an FMJ round to hunt large game. Period. End of story. You can try to justify it all you want, but you will fail, and have failed to do so.
caribou
Member
I can only comment on my personal observations, which includes 22 years of hunting for a living, and the last 6 years using a Sako'd Mosin with Czeck LPS fmj's with absolutly 100% kills.
Now I do alot of hunting across tundra, and I'm not perfect, but I do have to do a second shot occassionally, as thats the way it gos!
Fact is, you must have good shot placement EVERY SHOT, or no matter WHAT you shoot it with, its gonna be wounded.
A more powerfull gun in NO WAY makes up for poor markmanship.
The Sako with czech LPS is THE most accurate rifle/ammo combination I have ever found, and at a rediculasly cheap prices.
Hard ball will do the LEAST damage to meat. Soft points do the MOST damage to meat.
9 outta 10 times I shoot them in the head or neck, only when Im not sure will I make a Heart shot.
Heres a visd from last month,
three shots at three caribou, with Czech LPS
Nothing unethical at all in using the proper bullet for the job; Since bullet placement is 100% of why something dies, I use the most accurate combination I know of and stick with it.
In the vid, all three are moving targets.
Hitting the neck bone assures a fist sized exit wound.
Its also legal to hunt with FMJ's in AK, and more than half of my fellow meat hunters use the same.
Plenty use .223 on everything, and it is ALWAYS "Where", not with "What".
Go with accuracy.
Now I do alot of hunting across tundra, and I'm not perfect, but I do have to do a second shot occassionally, as thats the way it gos!
Fact is, you must have good shot placement EVERY SHOT, or no matter WHAT you shoot it with, its gonna be wounded.
A more powerfull gun in NO WAY makes up for poor markmanship.
The Sako with czech LPS is THE most accurate rifle/ammo combination I have ever found, and at a rediculasly cheap prices.
Hard ball will do the LEAST damage to meat. Soft points do the MOST damage to meat.
9 outta 10 times I shoot them in the head or neck, only when Im not sure will I make a Heart shot.
Heres a visd from last month,
three shots at three caribou, with Czech LPS
Nothing unethical at all in using the proper bullet for the job; Since bullet placement is 100% of why something dies, I use the most accurate combination I know of and stick with it.
In the vid, all three are moving targets.
Hitting the neck bone assures a fist sized exit wound.
Its also legal to hunt with FMJ's in AK, and more than half of my fellow meat hunters use the same.
Plenty use .223 on everything, and it is ALWAYS "Where", not with "What".
Go with accuracy.
Clipper
Member
So who died and appointed you Arbiter of Ethics?
Gimme a break...
NCsmitty
Member
caribou, It was a little hard to see the quarry, but that was a cool vid. Nice shooting! You walk the talk.
NCsmitty
NCsmitty
koja48
member
I wonder why they established the Geneva convention prohibiting expanding bullets on enemy combatants (kinda like deer-sized game, only less athletic)? One would suspect that research was done & that the expanding rounds were a tad more destructive, but . . . I could be wrong. I'll use the slug appropriate to the quarry . . . "pencil-holing" a deer ain't my bag. Even if solids were legal (and they aren't in most, if not all states), I personally wouldn't use them. If you're too frugal to handload or buy good ammo, please don't hunt. Deer deserve better than that . . .
caribou
Member
I might add here my personal observations with FMJ's and soft poits....
Soft points do alot more damage. (Thats a "Period")
If your making up for poor marksmanship, maby a fella needs all the help he can get.
Remington makes the best (For me) soft pointed ammo with great consistancey and all around accuracy.
For me (!!!) Czech silver tipped LPS is the most coonsistant milsurp that easily rivals Remington for accuracy, consistance and availibility (I buy it by the case)
Fact is, Czeck LPS tumbels quite a bit, often breaks at the clennature and when it hits bone (I aim at the neck bone/skull) it sheds its jacket and lead into little pices and the steel core often exist the animal and lodges in the elasic skin opposite of the entry hole.
Its Dynamite on Brown Bears..... but Ive only killed more than dozen over the years, so its an ongoing observation, and plenty of Blacks Bears as well....all with FMJ's
Soft points on large Game often expand/expolde just after the entry, with only fragments penatrating deeply, though the wound is surely a killer....
Often Soft points make "pencil holes" when they do not hit bone, and often lodge, still looking new, under the skin opposite of the entry hole.
I hunt for meat and fur. Its a way different hunt than for antlers.
No matter what you hit them with, all that matters is "Where" you hit them, every time.
I shoot straight and true with FMJ's, you have to find the most accurate round that your gun shoots and go with it.
Soft points do alot more damage. (Thats a "Period")
If your making up for poor marksmanship, maby a fella needs all the help he can get.
Remington makes the best (For me) soft pointed ammo with great consistancey and all around accuracy.
For me (!!!) Czech silver tipped LPS is the most coonsistant milsurp that easily rivals Remington for accuracy, consistance and availibility (I buy it by the case)
Fact is, Czeck LPS tumbels quite a bit, often breaks at the clennature and when it hits bone (I aim at the neck bone/skull) it sheds its jacket and lead into little pices and the steel core often exist the animal and lodges in the elasic skin opposite of the entry hole.
Its Dynamite on Brown Bears..... but Ive only killed more than dozen over the years, so its an ongoing observation, and plenty of Blacks Bears as well....all with FMJ's
Soft points on large Game often expand/expolde just after the entry, with only fragments penatrating deeply, though the wound is surely a killer....
Often Soft points make "pencil holes" when they do not hit bone, and often lodge, still looking new, under the skin opposite of the entry hole.
I hunt for meat and fur. Its a way different hunt than for antlers.
No matter what you hit them with, all that matters is "Where" you hit them, every time.
I shoot straight and true with FMJ's, you have to find the most accurate round that your gun shoots and go with it.
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Here's the deal.
Before modern high-velocity ammo, nobody would have thought to shoot a deer with .25" or .30" projectiles. .50" was typical for round balls, and early conicals .45" and up were the rounds of choice. Velocity was slow, but bullet weights were high.
I've examined several buffalo shot with BP .45-70 with heavy bullets. I was using 520 grain hardcast bullets in my gun and dropped the thing in one shot -- had to figure out which hole was the entry and which was the exit, since they looked the same. We couldn't find many bullets, even in buffs that had been shot several times. They went straight through unless they hit something really hard. Lots of damage, like a freight train, not fast, but big, heavy, and it seemed like nothing slowed the bullets down.
So anyway, late in the 19th Century, someone invents smokeless powder. Then they figure out that they can increase velocity a lot. This means a smaller bullet can have a lot more energy than with black powder. So, they developed the familiar spitzer that we still use today -- small diameter, long and skinny bullet with a sharp leading point.
This was GREAT. Instead of having bullet drops measured in feet, drop was now just inches, even at long ranges. This made hunting a lot easier.
However, these little bullets, with all their velocity, didn't make big holes. The .45-70, .38-40 (actually .40"), etc., were hole-punching rounds.
There was a simple solution. The soft, expanding point turned the extra velocity into a bigger hole. You could get the flatter trajectory and higher energy with a smaller diameter bullet, and turn it into a larger diameter bullet when it hit its target.
The first modern smokeless hunting round was the .30-30. It was first marketed as a "metal patched" lead bullet.
Bottom line: FMJ rounds were never developed as hunting rounds. Not even the first modern hunting rifle cartridge, long before all the development we've since seen in bullet design, was a FMJ.
Before modern high-velocity ammo, nobody would have thought to shoot a deer with .25" or .30" projectiles. .50" was typical for round balls, and early conicals .45" and up were the rounds of choice. Velocity was slow, but bullet weights were high.
I've examined several buffalo shot with BP .45-70 with heavy bullets. I was using 520 grain hardcast bullets in my gun and dropped the thing in one shot -- had to figure out which hole was the entry and which was the exit, since they looked the same. We couldn't find many bullets, even in buffs that had been shot several times. They went straight through unless they hit something really hard. Lots of damage, like a freight train, not fast, but big, heavy, and it seemed like nothing slowed the bullets down.
So anyway, late in the 19th Century, someone invents smokeless powder. Then they figure out that they can increase velocity a lot. This means a smaller bullet can have a lot more energy than with black powder. So, they developed the familiar spitzer that we still use today -- small diameter, long and skinny bullet with a sharp leading point.
This was GREAT. Instead of having bullet drops measured in feet, drop was now just inches, even at long ranges. This made hunting a lot easier.
However, these little bullets, with all their velocity, didn't make big holes. The .45-70, .38-40 (actually .40"), etc., were hole-punching rounds.
There was a simple solution. The soft, expanding point turned the extra velocity into a bigger hole. You could get the flatter trajectory and higher energy with a smaller diameter bullet, and turn it into a larger diameter bullet when it hit its target.
The first modern smokeless hunting round was the .30-30. It was first marketed as a "metal patched" lead bullet.
Bottom line: FMJ rounds were never developed as hunting rounds. Not even the first modern hunting rifle cartridge, long before all the development we've since seen in bullet design, was a FMJ.
koja48
member
Soft lead versus FMJ . . . anybody see a distinct difference there?
caribou
Member
Sure do see a slight difference....
A miss with a soft point or an FMJ s still a miss....
A hit in a vital with FMJ or soft point is still a kill.....
A badly placed hit with a soft point or an FMJ is still gonna need a followup, untill a fella can hit it right.
The difference is in lawfull use.
Nothing to do with the Genevea convention, as I dont use poison gas or take prisoners.......LOL!!!
great thread.....
A miss with a soft point or an FMJ s still a miss....
A hit in a vital with FMJ or soft point is still a kill.....
A badly placed hit with a soft point or an FMJ is still gonna need a followup, untill a fella can hit it right.
The difference is in lawfull use.
Nothing to do with the Genevea convention, as I dont use poison gas or take prisoners.......LOL!!!
great thread.....
Hardcast bullets aren't soft lead.
Soft lead was used to make muzzleloaders possible to load.
Again, a look inside a buffalo shot with vintage loads is revealing. There was no expansion with those old bullets. Even a bullet stopped by a huge bone was merely deformed a bit. No expansion.
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