ROGER4314
Member
My older sister is a mean old bat and she pulled that one on me. She even sold firearms that were mine! I never had much of a family life but that didn't help one bit. Haven't seen her since 1983!
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Sold: Grandpa's WWII BHP Bring Back
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Vonderek
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My elderly uncle found reasons to alienate himself from everyone in my family...he did not want any help or contact with any of us and just wanted to be "left alone". He left his entire estate to his neighbor (including generational family heirlooms and photo albums).
tinygnat219
Member
Fortunately, I have my grandfather's WWII bringback guns. Dad and I had a long talk about them and I wanted to ensure that they stayed in the family.
I also have contacted other members of the family for the other older relatives' bringbacks, that if they want to get rid of them, please give me first right of refusal. I will pay cash, or swap for another family item that they might want. This way, everyone makes out: the weapons get preserved, they stay in the family, and hopefully I generate enough interest in preserving family history to pass these down to the next generation.
My advice is to do the same, let the relatives know that you'd like first right of refusal, but offer something of value in return. If the relatives fall on hard times, this makes everything much better for the reunions and such.
I also have contacted other members of the family for the other older relatives' bringbacks, that if they want to get rid of them, please give me first right of refusal. I will pay cash, or swap for another family item that they might want. This way, everyone makes out: the weapons get preserved, they stay in the family, and hopefully I generate enough interest in preserving family history to pass these down to the next generation.
My advice is to do the same, let the relatives know that you'd like first right of refusal, but offer something of value in return. If the relatives fall on hard times, this makes everything much better for the reunions and such.
DFW1911
Member
Thanks for the words of encouragement, sympathy, understanding, and the ideas you've offered - I appreciate it very much.
Per my other uncle, Uncle A (who's equally upset), my grandfather's will stipulated that Uncle B (the seller) was supposed to act as a custodian of several items (including BHP and SS Daggers) until such time they were to be passed to the grandchildren, my cousins, my brother, and me.
While we know the serial number of the sold BHP, I'm guessing the chances of finding it are not too great. Uncle A challenged his brother on who he sold them to. "I don't know...some guy at a gun show." Yep, long gone.
It also appears that Uncle B, who sold the BHP and SS Daggers, has had quite a long bout of issues with the bottle. Drinking problems trump what is written in a document.
The good news is that both my brother and I have other non-firearms / weapons items from him, including silk maps, his medals (including Purple Heart), his "red cross" armband, many great photos, and other items, so his legacy will live on both in memories and items from that terrible time.
Thanks again for your input: very much appreciated indeed.
DFW1911
Per my other uncle, Uncle A (who's equally upset), my grandfather's will stipulated that Uncle B (the seller) was supposed to act as a custodian of several items (including BHP and SS Daggers) until such time they were to be passed to the grandchildren, my cousins, my brother, and me.
While we know the serial number of the sold BHP, I'm guessing the chances of finding it are not too great. Uncle A challenged his brother on who he sold them to. "I don't know...some guy at a gun show." Yep, long gone.
It also appears that Uncle B, who sold the BHP and SS Daggers, has had quite a long bout of issues with the bottle. Drinking problems trump what is written in a document.
The good news is that both my brother and I have other non-firearms / weapons items from him, including silk maps, his medals (including Purple Heart), his "red cross" armband, many great photos, and other items, so his legacy will live on both in memories and items from that terrible time.
Thanks again for your input: very much appreciated indeed.
DFW1911
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leadcounsel
member
I was screwed out of a modest inheritance by an unscrupulous aunt, really more of a friend to my grandmother. The only thing of any value that I wanted was the first two BB guns I had ever fired. One was a 1911 style with a flip up front and the other was a Revolver style. I loved both but they were long gone in a fire-sale of the estate while I was away at college.
millertyme
Member
Something like this happened when one of my granddads passed away. I had a cousin who thought he was entitled to items that were left to other people and he blamed my dad for all sorts of things. Just a second to what SSN Vet said about the relationships.
Don't get all tied up in your sentimentality of an object that was rightfully given to someone else who did something with it you don't approve of. You have a right to be irritated by it but if it's their property they have a right to do whatever they want with it unless it was specified in the terms of their ownership that they have to have the permission of the the rest of the family to sell it or something like that. I understand that you had fond memories about the pistol, but at least you still have those.
I think the first route would be to establish the means by which he acquired the property. If his dad had given him the pistol and daggers and it was known to everyone else that that's how he acquired the property then he is the rightful owner of it and can do with it what he may. If it was acquired through trust or as it was specified in the will, he'd still be free to do whatever he wants with it, unless otherwise specified.
I know you said the stuff has a high level of sentimentality to you, but how much are you willing to pay to secure the item? Does your sentimentality outweigh fair market value? If your uncle needed the money more than he needed a WWII era 9mm, who can fault him for selling it, if nothing more than just for not offering to sell it to a family member to keep it either in the family or for them to take it in trust.On the bright side, at least the pistol went into the possession of a collector so you can be reasonably sure the pistol will be taken care of an not tossed in the glove box as a truck gun.
In case there are any more artifacts your uncle has that you would rather keep in the family than see peddled off to a collector, you need to speak to him.
Sorry, just read your previous post. If he's the named custodian in your will you have legal recourse against him if it was specified that the items in his custody were to remain in the family (passed on to the kids). You may have a hard time getting the HP back, but if nothing else you can have him removed as the custodian for failing to execute the duties of his office.
Don't get all tied up in your sentimentality of an object that was rightfully given to someone else who did something with it you don't approve of. You have a right to be irritated by it but if it's their property they have a right to do whatever they want with it unless it was specified in the terms of their ownership that they have to have the permission of the the rest of the family to sell it or something like that. I understand that you had fond memories about the pistol, but at least you still have those.
I think the first route would be to establish the means by which he acquired the property. If his dad had given him the pistol and daggers and it was known to everyone else that that's how he acquired the property then he is the rightful owner of it and can do with it what he may. If it was acquired through trust or as it was specified in the will, he'd still be free to do whatever he wants with it, unless otherwise specified.
I know you said the stuff has a high level of sentimentality to you, but how much are you willing to pay to secure the item? Does your sentimentality outweigh fair market value? If your uncle needed the money more than he needed a WWII era 9mm, who can fault him for selling it, if nothing more than just for not offering to sell it to a family member to keep it either in the family or for them to take it in trust.On the bright side, at least the pistol went into the possession of a collector so you can be reasonably sure the pistol will be taken care of an not tossed in the glove box as a truck gun.
In case there are any more artifacts your uncle has that you would rather keep in the family than see peddled off to a collector, you need to speak to him.
Sorry, just read your previous post. If he's the named custodian in your will you have legal recourse against him if it was specified that the items in his custody were to remain in the family (passed on to the kids). You may have a hard time getting the HP back, but if nothing else you can have him removed as the custodian for failing to execute the duties of his office.
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waterhouse
Member
Tough situation to be in. Items of sentimental value can lead to a lot of family fighting. I'm thankful that when my dad passed away my brothers and I were able to split things up fairly and without hard feelings. I've heard stories from friends about families being torn apart over such things.
Good that you can focus on those items.
If you have the serial number, you may want to post a WTB ad in the local classifieds.
Good that you can focus on those items.
If you have the serial number, you may want to post a WTB ad in the local classifieds.
I've heard this kind of thing many times. I think it must come from a spouse that doesn't really have a clue about the other's interests or hobbies and never really approved of having "those things" in the house. They think they're just junk to get rid of.
Both of my grandfathers, late in life, gave stuff away that heirs would have loved to have had. My dad was really upset that my grandpa had given away the old Winchester 63 .22 he learned to shoot with. When my dad found out and was incredulous about it, my grandpa's response was "That old thing? It was old and worn out. Why would you want it?". My father-in-law recently gave away something we had stored at his house. He just thought it was something we wouldn't need anymore, didn't think to ask us.
You never know what someone will do, unless you make your feelings known. A comment about how you would really like one like that someday, or "If you ever get rid of it, remember me", can put it in a person's mind that an item is something you value.
It always makes me wonder when I read a thread where someone is bragging about the pristine Model 12 Winchester or some such that they bought from some old-timer for $50. Are there some upset heirs out there somewhere?
On the other hand, a gun shop owner I used to know told me about several guns he bought from a couple brothers who brought them in. They were laughing about the guns they just inherited from Gramps, and how they could sell them for beer money. He was proud about how he had flat-out ripped them off. He figured that if they had no more respect for Gramps than to sell his family heirlooms for beer money, they didn't deserve them.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Really sorry to hear about this. I do hope you can track down the buyer and that he or she is reasonable.
I've never experienced quite the same kind of loss. My Mom was hoping that she would be able to pass on one or more of her Dad's guns to me or my brothers, but another family member who lived close managed to secure them all on my Grand Dad's death. I just wish he had asked if there were any others who might also have been interested. But that was years ago, and I only think about it when I hear stories like this.
Good luck to you.
I've never experienced quite the same kind of loss. My Mom was hoping that she would be able to pass on one or more of her Dad's guns to me or my brothers, but another family member who lived close managed to secure them all on my Grand Dad's death. I just wish he had asked if there were any others who might also have been interested. But that was years ago, and I only think about it when I hear stories like this.
Good luck to you.
Snowdog
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Yup. A year after my grandmother died, my grandfather remarried and developed Alzheimer's. His new wife took advantage of his degrading state and sold a Springfield 1903 (with a "star gage" mark) and a Savage model 99 in .250 Savage. These rifles were used by my grandparents to hunt elk in the 50's and it was agreed upon when I was a child that they would eventually go to me.
I'm familiar with the frustration you're experiencing. Good luck tracking those items down.
I'm familiar with the frustration you're experiencing. Good luck tracking those items down.
shotgunjoel
Member
My grandma sold my grandfather's Colt SAA to a janitor at the hospital for something like $20-$50. My father, who had never been into guns (it took me a year of convincing for him to let me buy my first gun.) is still upset. Me too, I never knew my grandfather, he died when my dad was a kid.
Joe Demko
Member
First, a huge percentage of war bring-backs were originally obtained by GI's trading, or outright buying and selling, among themselves. Most of the stories about who took what off the dead kraut/jap officer he killed are_to be blunt_so much hooey. Don't get yourself too overwrought because of any family folklore attached to the gun.
Second, just because it was the first gun you held, that doesn't make it yours.
Third, if you must have it, find the guy who bought it and offer him 150% of what he paid for it. Cash.
I mean, I feel for you, but the world is what it is. An uncle I grew up hunting with and who was my idol died about 15 years ago. I really wanted his .300 Savage, but my cousin simply wouldn't sell it to me even though I offered him blue book +. He figured he would keep it for himself. Later on, he sold all my uncle's guns for pennies on the dollar to a dealer. It spites one, but there you go.
Second, just because it was the first gun you held, that doesn't make it yours.
Third, if you must have it, find the guy who bought it and offer him 150% of what he paid for it. Cash.
I mean, I feel for you, but the world is what it is. An uncle I grew up hunting with and who was my idol died about 15 years ago. I really wanted his .300 Savage, but my cousin simply wouldn't sell it to me even though I offered him blue book +. He figured he would keep it for himself. Later on, he sold all my uncle's guns for pennies on the dollar to a dealer. It spites one, but there you go.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I can't speak for any other situation but in the case of my ex-father-in-law,I believe his version of how he got the Dryse .32acp. He took it from a Germany officer who was a POW. The German was limping and my ex-f-i-l guarding the prisoners odered the officer to take off his boot revealing the little automatic. That is Gospel as far as I am concerned. I think most such stories are the truth.
Joe Demko
Member
Then you should read some period issues of Stars and Stripes; it was written by military for military. Souveniers, the collecting of and the commerce in, are the topic of a good many articles. Stuff was bought and sold, traded for, gambled for, stolen from fellow GI's, and about a million other things. Yet family folklore is virtually always "Grampy took this off'n a dead kraut/jap officer he kilt."
My brother Dave has a Luger that his FIL took off a dead German. I knew the man, Marion was his name, and I have no doubt of his honesty. I can't recall, however, if he shot the German or not. Dave also has a Drilling shotgun/rifle that Marion liberated from a hook on the back of a door in a farmhouse in Belgium. The Luger still has the same ammo in it he found it with, and the Drilling is still in the canvas bag it was hanging in. Both are in outstanding condition, and Dave considers them priceless.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Joe,I understand what you are saying and don't doubt that that happened a lot. I am not so fast to doubt the word of these old veterans (WW II and Korea)whose numbers are getting smaller every day. There were many opportunities for souveniers to be collected in the latter days of the war and many soldiers took advantage of those opportunities.
Joe Demko
Member
I understand the desire to honor and venerate the WWII vets. It is a fact, though, that there were enormous numbers of vets who were in various support slots and who never saw a moment of combat, thought they might have been deployed overseas. Mechanics, cooks, truck drivers, and so on served honorably but are, shall we say, unlikely to have killed many Axis officers and taken their sidearms. I also must say that family folklore often tends to grow and mutate from what Grampy himself might have said about the provenance of a given piece. "I brought this home from Germany" turns into "Grampy took this off Otto Skorzeny after he killed him in hand-to-hand combat."
jad0110
Member
Yeah, and even worse are the ones you here about where the surviving spouse hauls off all those icky guns to the local gun buyback. :banghead:
SharpsDressedMan
member
It still frosts my ass that our government does not extend the same respect to our fighting men that my Dad and Grandfather enjoyed when they served in WWII and WWI in being allowed to bringback "liberated" weapons. I would not fault present day persons thinking about enlisting in our armed forces to decline to do so until our government chooses to respect them as they have in the past. The bringing back of weapons is just one of many things that have changed, denigrating the rights and privileges of our fighting men. Topics such as reading material, personal weapons, travel, etc have all been encroached upon to cater to political pressures from enemies, bureaucrats, and leftists that don't have any respect for the military at all. As a result, there are NO heirlooms or curios obtained in war and held by our current fighting men to even pass on to their descendents.
armoredman
Member
I shot an M1 carbine that was a WWII bring back, and the gent who let me shoot it was very frank about how he got it. He was a navy officer, and sent a junior officer down the beach on Guadalcanal after the fighting was pretty much over with a smuggled bottle of Scotch, so he could have a carbine to take home. Sinec he is deceased now and the carbine long gone, I think I can tell that one. 
As for the relative selling things, I can relate to that as well. I was asked to clean my father-in-laws collection, as being the only family member who had any interest/knowledge of firearms. Some were absolute junkers, a few fantastically odd, (sliding cannon breach double barrel shotgun, anyone?), and his carry gun, a simple H&R 32SW, nothing special, but very special to my wife. The sister in law took the entire collection to a gun shop and got pennies on the dollar. My wife will not speak to her again.
To the OP, I hope karma rolls around, and you find your HP waiting for you...
As for the relative selling things, I can relate to that as well. I was asked to clean my father-in-laws collection, as being the only family member who had any interest/knowledge of firearms. Some were absolute junkers, a few fantastically odd, (sliding cannon breach double barrel shotgun, anyone?), and his carry gun, a simple H&R 32SW, nothing special, but very special to my wife. The sister in law took the entire collection to a gun shop and got pennies on the dollar. My wife will not speak to her again.
To the OP, I hope karma rolls around, and you find your HP waiting for you...
Joe Demko
Member
Marion flat-out stole this gun from some poor Belgian slob. It's one thing to take trophies from the enemy, but quite another to simply loot from civilians, especially when they aren't even civilians from the nation with whom you are actually at war. Yeah, I know lots of GI's, even ranking officers, did it. It was still theft.
In the German Army, theft or looting of that kind was a very serious offence and was not tolerated.
Sad when one's 'enemies' have better ethics and personal character than we do/did.
Especially when we had them outnumbered 100 to one...and are still boasting about beating them.
None the less, mediating relatives can indeed disappoint.
A friend of mine here, in his mid 90s now, was a Motorcycle Cop in the early to mid 1930s. Later, a Mechanic and Motorcycle enthusiast.
His Home and Garage ( bought his present Home in like 1946 ) were absolutely full of endless cool things from the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, even boxes of local Newspapers, old Police memorabilia, his old Uniforms, Motorcycle riding apparel from back when, all kinds of Tools, endless stuff, and old Guns too.
Everything neat and well organized, and just piled up through the years. Boxes and Trunks and so on, all stacked and Shelves full of stuff
Anyway, he was healthy as a Horse, but a hypocpondriac...always complaining of wierd aches and pains and so on.
So, he checks himself into some clinic for a week's worth of tests.
Soon as he did that, his daughter sold everything in his House and Garage to some people for ( suppodedly ) $800.00.
Big Rental Trucks pulled up, and a crew just loaded up everything and split.
Old 1930s 1940s Roll Around Tool Chests filled with Bluepoint and other good Tools from the day, wonderful Car related Tools and accessories, anyway...he gets back 'home' and the House and garage are literally 'empty' but for litter and small mess things.
Man...that's gotta hurt.
I ended up seeing some of his things in various local antique stores.
He had all the early issues of Hot Rod Magazine from like '46 on to '50-something, and saw stacks of those in a used Book Store, all with the little old time address label with his name and address...definitely his...
Oye...
Sad when one's 'enemies' have better ethics and personal character than we do/did.
Especially when we had them outnumbered 100 to one...and are still boasting about beating them.
None the less, mediating relatives can indeed disappoint.
A friend of mine here, in his mid 90s now, was a Motorcycle Cop in the early to mid 1930s. Later, a Mechanic and Motorcycle enthusiast.
His Home and Garage ( bought his present Home in like 1946 ) were absolutely full of endless cool things from the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, even boxes of local Newspapers, old Police memorabilia, his old Uniforms, Motorcycle riding apparel from back when, all kinds of Tools, endless stuff, and old Guns too.
Everything neat and well organized, and just piled up through the years. Boxes and Trunks and so on, all stacked and Shelves full of stuff
Anyway, he was healthy as a Horse, but a hypocpondriac...always complaining of wierd aches and pains and so on.
So, he checks himself into some clinic for a week's worth of tests.
Soon as he did that, his daughter sold everything in his House and Garage to some people for ( suppodedly ) $800.00.
Big Rental Trucks pulled up, and a crew just loaded up everything and split.
Old 1930s 1940s Roll Around Tool Chests filled with Bluepoint and other good Tools from the day, wonderful Car related Tools and accessories, anyway...he gets back 'home' and the House and garage are literally 'empty' but for litter and small mess things.
Man...that's gotta hurt.
I ended up seeing some of his things in various local antique stores.
He had all the early issues of Hot Rod Magazine from like '46 on to '50-something, and saw stacks of those in a used Book Store, all with the little old time address label with his name and address...definitely his...
Oye...
oneounceload
member
Have seen the same thing here - old man dies - widow sells his guns at a garage sale -40 guns for 800 bucks - sucks on one side, BUT - if YOU were the one who stumbled upon it, you'd be here crowing about the smoking deal you got................if something isn't worth anything to the current owner, then it is worth exactly that.............
I have seen Longaberger baskets sell at garage sales for $1.00.....they were worth 100-200 times that...but not to the owner........same goes for guns...or anything else - basic econ 101
I have seen Longaberger baskets sell at garage sales for $1.00.....they were worth 100-200 times that...but not to the owner........same goes for guns...or anything else - basic econ 101
armoredman
Member
Show me the American ovens where Jews were burned, show me the British stalags. The Wermacht had some honorable men in it, (Afrika Corps comes to mind), but to say that those who used the famous Nuremburg Defense have better ethics than the GIs who fought them is insulting to every GI or Tommy who spilt his guts against the Axis war machine.
WHO STARTED IT? They bought and paid for the whirlwind they reaped. Please post the troops strengths that show at what time the Allies combat forces deployed against the Axis ever outnumbered them 100-1.
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