Soldiers carrying civilian weapons as secondary armament.

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WVGunman

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This subject came up in my Rohm/RG thread, so I figured I might as well ask it as a general question. For those who are veterans, did you ever personally carry a civilian gun as a backup, or witness fellow soldiers doing so? I'm thinking of a .38 tucked into the backpack, or something like that. Ever see one used or have to use a gun like this in action yourself?
If there's any research on this subject available online, I'd like to hear about it. I'm especially interested in what guns seemed to be most popular for this purpose.
 
Back in the 70's quite a few of us carried our own weapons in lieu of carrying Uncle Sams 1911. For a while I carried a Colt Army Special in .41 Colt and then when I went overseas to Korea I carried a Webley and Scott Mark VI in .45 ACP
 
Viet-Nam the carrying of other than the military issued handguns was prevalent. The handguns would arrive in care packages sent from home.
 
All sorts of handguns turned up in SEA. Everything from little .25 autos to .44 mag single and double action revolvers.

However, the most interesting I ever saw wasn't originally a hand gun. It was an M-2 carbine with the barrel shortened and the butt stock cut off behind the pistol grip.

This wasn't some hacksaw job. The barrel was cut and re-crowned. The end of the butt stock was nicely rounded off. It had one accessory. A flashlight taped to the forend. No sights.
 
Viet-Nam the carrying of other than the military issued handguns was prevalent. The handguns would arrive in care packages sent from home.

That's surprising, given how often you hear the 1911A1 praised to the high heavens as the end-all be-all of handguns.
 
That's surprising, given how often you hear the 1911A1 praised to the high heavens as the end-all be-all of handguns.

Wasn't always easy to obtain a 1911A1. There were many jobs for which they weren't authorized, so folks made do. Of course the small .25 acp's I mentioned were generally hideouts used more for "recreational" purposes.
 
If you go by the book, personal weapons are not authorized. Far enough outside the wire, nobody cares. Just don't expect to bring it home with you.
 
Devonai said:
If you go by the book, personal weapons are not authorized. Far enough outside the wire, nobody cares. Just don't expect to bring it home with you.

This. I only knew a couple guys who were in a position and authorized by their commanders to take their personal pistols...that is by far the exception to the rule and limited to just a couple types of units. Transportation is the problem as combat zones go into full gear, service members often travel commercial air and can't take anything personal.

A few others will trade or acquire a sidearm in-country, but it would have to stay upon their return. Ammunition was often the bigger concern...

ROCK6
 
I knew a guy who told me he never went anywhere in the Nam without his small Colt Pistol. He also had his own 1911 and a short barrel .357 Magnum revolver. (I don't remember the make)
 
As late as the early 80's I had opportunity to carry a 1911 while safeguarding money at Ft. Knox. Being lazy, it was sometimes easier to holster my own pistol rather than draw one from the arms room. Only problem was that I owned a .38 Super! I hate to think how much fecal matter would have hit the oscillating device if I had ever had to use it.
 
Some folks just never liked the 1911A1. I knew folks that made excuses not to carry them. One officer claimed the ammunition his unit was given would bounce off the pressed card board targets, if it even made it there. His unit was attached and used ammo We had access to.

When I drew from that same lot, even his broken open cans we had no bouncing bullets and none that failed to make it to the target line......go figure.

I had an Officer assigned that insisted his was defective and jammed every shot......also his hits at 7 yards were all over the paper which demonstrated his pistol was wildly inaccurate, he said. As this weapon was from my arms room and on my range I took it and rapidly fired 5 rounds into the head of a target at 15 yards, offered him his choice of any other 1911A1 and he stormed off.

Even when they paid attention there were folks that had them selves so convinced the issue 1911A1 was some sort of monster they just could not shoot a minimum score.

One of my best school friends, even though he joined the Corps rather than the good old US Army, just could not shoot a 1911A1 for beans. Before he left on a med cruise once he asked me to find him a 1917 revolver. As it was I found two, one of each flavor thinking I would buy the one he did not. He shot those old guns well. He also bought both and in keeping with the original topic, he carried them both to Spain, Italy and Greece where he attracted a great deal of local attention with them.

As an Officer I carried in the early 1980's a "POW" (Privately Owned Weapon) most of my time in 3rd Armored Division in Hanau and out training. Mostly and initially I carried a Colt Series '70 Mark IV .45 ACP in a 1911 style cav holster with the swivel and leg strap. I also carried at various times and ways a P7, CZ75, and P1 (P38).

As enlisted it was more difficult for me to actually carry though I did carry that same Colt S70MkIV for a bit when tasked with payroll guard and such and totally off the books carried a Pietta 1851 Colt .36 C&B revolver with Round Ball on a few patrols around Pershing missile sights. I knew EM that carried a few guns when they could get away with it. My own Squad leader carired a Walther PPk in .32 most any time we went away from the barracks,( and we were only there over night 27 times my first year) nd sold it to another NCO when he found out he could not take it home.) Several Officers carried pistols not issued, I knew young LTs that carried a Browning High Power, a Made right across the river P38 Commercial, and Star B model light weight with Beta Sights (this last was the first tritium sighted gun I ever shot in I believe '74)

When I was at Ft. Sill for Artillery Cannon Battery Officer Course I carried an un authorized knife, but two other Prior Service Mustangs carried pocket pistols, one a .25 and the other a .32.

It ain't necessarily by the book, and it can get you in serious trouble but folks used to do it a lot more than many would believe.

-kBob
 
My first tour (66-67) I carried a Colt M357 with handloads -- hollowbased wadcutters loaded backward. I served two customers, and neither one asked for his money back.
 
Lots of guys brought personal weapons in their flight gear when we deployed for Operation Desert Shield/Storm. It created somewhat of a stink when it was found out. They were all confiscated and locked in an arms room when we landed at our deployed location.
 
My time in service was 1987-2010. Use of personal firearms in every theater I was deployed to was strictly forbidden. For one thing, its a violation of ITARS. in some units, its even forbidden for personnel to use personal accessories like forward grips, optics, etc. That said, it was normal practice in MY unit to re-purpose captured weapons of all types to friendly indigenous forces, and in some cases press them into service ourselves (depending on the weapon type/purpose, serviceability, etc.) But, bringing your own Kimber desert warrior or Glock 17C with meprolight sights that you purchased stateside on a blue label deal was very unauthorized and I would have never done such a thing.
 
In WW2 folks send S&W and Colt revolvers usually in .38 spl. In the book, Currahee, the author said his father sent him a nickle plated 1911 .45 to carry (and he did.)

Korean war had it the same way. Even Vietnam. But after that higher officers became 'managers' and I understand SOME special ops groups do get to pack their own personal sidearms now, but with the 'managed' war, it's pretty much prohibited now days for regular grunts.

Deaf
 
I was assigned to a small Intelligence unit in W. Germany during the late 60s. Most of the guys in my team carried Walther PPKs (7.65mm / .32ACP) as they concealed well under our civilian clothes. I was cheap and carried a Star .32ACP which was like a minature 1911.

We wore suits and only wore uniforms for training exercises in which case we carried 1911s. I shipped my little Star home in my household goods when I completed my active duty service. I carried it as my CCW weapon for a few years after I got home.
 
I can tell you that based on my last two deployments to the bad places, getting caught with a personally-owned or non-issued handgun would've landed one in deep kim chee.

There was, in fact, a CENCOM order out to that effect in '03-'05. But, everyone can believe what they want.
 
Grandaddy was in Korea. He started off as infantry and soon found some trouble to get into and got tasked with the BAR. He didn't talk about the war much, but the few times he did, he kept talking about a captured pistol that he kept handy. Said it was a lot more deployable in hurry-up fashion. I know it was a 7.62 pistol, but I have no clue beyond that. It got "lost" (to the medic on the willys jeep) when he was wounded in battle and pulled back behind the the lines. Apparently that pistol got used a time or two when they got ambushed at close range. I always thought the BAR would be a better attention getter...maybe not.

Not totally off topic, but a SF friend of mine (active now) says that a whole lot of times the guys run their own secondary with an arms room primary. Interestingly enough a lot of those guys kicking in doors prefer a shovel. Per my friend, a shovel as a bludgeoning tool is pretty effective, and with a sharpened spade point it really does a number on guys close enough to grab long arms. He said the biggest advantage of a shovel is that you never go inactive to swap mags or clear a jammed weapon in the middle of a firefight. Glad I'm not the one swinging a shovel for a living.
 
FWIW, my maternal grandfather was a forward artillery observer in WWII (D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, crossing the Rhine, etc). He said that he carried "a 38". I have always assumed that he meant a revolver. I don't know if it was issued, or if another soldier gave it to him, or if his folks sent it to him.

I read a lot of memoirs (history buff). There are a lot of Vietnam ones. I don't generally prefer the ones written by the SF, but a lot of them mention carrying some sort of "civilian" handgun as a BuG.
 
It ain't the '60s/'70s anymore. Rules are enforced and things like personally owned firearms are strictly forbidden these days and not worth the effort. You may hear tales of people carrying their own guns in the middle east but I have a hard time believing them. My son is in AF spec ops, in his 3 deployments (so far) to Afghanistan he has yet to see or hear about anyone carrying personally owned firearms. However, personally owned knives, magazines, holsters, red dots, and things like that are pretty common.
 
The soldier on the left in this image does not appear to be carrying a standard Army issue 1911.

12-patton-silver-star-jenkins-pistol.jpg
That soldier just happens to be General Patton. General officers in the Army, Air Force and Marine Corps along with Navy Admirials have always been allowed to carry whatever side arms they liked. Not so for the lower ranking officers and never legally for the enlisted men.

Having spent 20 years and retired from the Army I believe I can speak with some authority on this subject.
 
In my experience, getting a personal weapon overseas would not have been hard, getting it back would have been the trick. Getting caught with one would have been bad as well.
 
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