Soldiers carrying civilian weapons as secondary armament.

[Seven High]

There is an interesting thread at Kimpo AB about an airman who carried his grandfathers revolver which was unauthorized. They had a real problem with NKA infiltrators at night slipping into camp and assainating officers with knives. This occurred during the Korean War.

 

[GRIZ22]

AR 670-1 governs Army uniforms. The first page states it does not apply to General officers. A General can "make up" their own uniform. If that includes a nickel plated SAA, so be it. I'm sure the regulation said something like that during WWII. Eisenhower adopted the short jacket worn by the British. When someone figured out they could save a lot of material, everyone in the Army got one.

Soldiers carried a variety of personal weapons in Vietnam. When I got there in 1968 there was no need to bring one over as there were plenty there already. The Army didn't spend much energy in monitoring what you brought into Vietnam but made it clear you could only bring back "war souvenirs". That didn't include anything of US manufacture.

I saw just about every type of handgun carried by soldiers in Vietnam and quite a few other firearms. I knew one guy who carried a Ruger Blackhawk. There was a lieutenant who brought over a S&W Model 19 and a few boxes of Super Vel (first time i ever saw Super Vel). My Battery Commander had a commercial Thompson with a 100 rd drum until the MPs in Chu Lai confiscated it from him. No one really cared what you carried in the field but if it wasn't an issued weapon you would have it taken away from you in the rear. I never hear of anyone really getting in trobule. The weapon was just confiscated.

I went through a Llama 380, a 2" Model 10 Smith, and eventually got my hands on a 1911 in Vietnam. Generally speaking, your ammo situation was screwed if you had something that didn't shoot 45 ACP or 38 Special. Both calibers were readily available through Army sources. I have heard of but not witnessed Navy pilots flying from carriers that carried PPKs during that era.

I carried my own 1911 in the National Guard. When I was in my Officer Advanced Course Taurus 92s were a hot item among many lieutenants in their basic course. They were half the price of a Beretta and looked like one in a holster.

Carrying of personal weapons has tightened up considerably since then. I don't think the use of personal sidearms was based on lack of confidence in the 1911. I think it was based more on having something "extra" over your issued weapon. It seems the Army recognized this and seems to issue a lot more Berettas in addition to a M4 now.

 

[Coop45]

From what I've heard about the latest wars that they call "operation___", Vietnam was kinda nice. My battalion never had a home so we skated most of the BS associated with the military. There were a few personal weapons, but not many. Most were J frame size stuff carried by guys who lived through the M-16's teething problems. By the time I got there in mid 67 my M-16 had the heavy buffer and chrome chamber so it was a shooter. The personal stuff got passed down when a person left. An extra pair of socks even fell into that category.

 

[AlexanderA]

I hate to weigh in on this, not having been in the Army, but it seems to me that personally-owned weapons would be (a) a logistical problem, and (b) a discipline problem. Logistical, because of ammunition supply, parts supply, repairs, etc., and disciplinary, because officers need to know who has what. I can see why the Army is being strict about this these days.

 

[Coop45]

I hate to weigh in on this, not having been in the Army, but it seems to me that personally-owned weapons would be (a) a logistical problem, and (b) a discipline problem. Logistical, because of ammunition supply, parts supply, repairs, etc., and disciplinary, because officers need to know who has what. I can see why the Army is being strict about this these days.

Personal weapons were used just before entrenching tools and k-bars. They were not daily shooters and the longer you live the longer the co can stay alive. As for logistics, what logistics? When you are sleeping on the ground in the rain without chow logistics is a joke.

 

[justice06rr]

Off duty, probably.

My buddy who is Airforce Security Forces will carry M&P's when he comes home during vacation. On duty, it all depends on the CO and base you're in but I'm sure they will issue you the proper equipment if its required.

 

[Nature Boy]

I carried my personal 1911 for several years after they had been replaced by the M9. Kind of stupid on my part when I look back on it.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

I had a Charter Arms snubby I bought from a guy rotating home. Never fired it. Sold it for what I paid for it when I was rotating home.

 

[DPris]

Knew a guy in AF Security Police in the mid 70s who might have taken a two-shot .22 High Standard derringer to England for two years & might have carried it every shift he worked & might have carried it to London a time or two & might have shipped it home disassembled & wrapped up in a motorcycle tool kit.

Might have.

Highly forbidden on all counts, if it did happen.
Denis

 

[Seven High]

I knew of a couple of Air Police enlisted types that would exchange their issued 38 spl rounds for hollow point ammunition after guard mount. Luckily nothing bad happened during their shifts.

 

[jeepnik]

In WW2 folks send S&W and Colt revolvers usually in .38 spl. In the book, Currahee, the author said his father sent him a nickle plated 1911 .45 to carry (and he did.)

Korean war had it the same way. Even Vietnam. But after that higher officers became 'managers' and I understand SOME special ops groups do get to pack their own personal sidearms now, but with the 'managed' war, it's pretty much prohibited now days for regular grunts.

Deaf

I didn't think it was Donald Burgett, but rather one of the guys in his squad.

On another note, my father gave me some sound advice that came in very handy, I passed it on to my sons.

"Find a handgun". The advice had served my father well, it served me well, it also served my sons well.

 

[herrwalther]

Personal firearms are very strictly forbidden for military duties these days. Somehow the only thing more forbidden are weapons considered "war trophies" ie those gathered in theater through nearly any means. I tried bringing back a Pakistani made Tokarev knock off in as many pieces as I could break it down. Customs and MPs didn't really like that.

 

[FL-NC]

Western Ky- I think your friend was pulling your leg as far as doing CQB with a shovel. I was in several units like that (including one based on the TN/KY border) and while some guys may have carried impact weapons like ASP batons (or a large crescent wrench after an ASP baton was lost) for situations where it may be appropriate to "hurt" someone but not necessarily kill someone, I just don't see ODA members swinging shovels around on a modern day Special Operations mission in lieu of a firearm as something that actually happened. Was he wearing a loincloth too?

 

[Joshboyfutre]

It's a thing of the past now days unfortunately. I served in Iraq with 1st I.D.(Army) from 03-04 on an M-240B, its a belt-fed machine gun similar to the M-60. When your on a machine-gun your supposed to be issued a side-arm, usually the M-9 pistol filled this role. Unfortunately my unit didn't have enough pistols to go around, so none of the machine-gun teams got one. If I would have been allowed to I definately would have gotten a side arm of some kind. Fighting in a city with a 28 pound machine-gun is risky to say the least. Woulda been happy to have ANY pistol at the time. Lol a Hi-Point would have been welcome at the time

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Use of personal firearms in every theater I was deployed to was strictly forbidden. For one thing, its a violation of ITARS. in some units, its even forbidden for personnel to use personal accessories like forward grips, optics, etc. That said, it was normal practice in MY unit to re-purpose captured weapons of all types to friendly indigenous forces, and in some cases press them into service ourselves (depending on the weapon type/purpose, serviceability, etc.) But, bringing your own Kimber desert warrior or Glock 17C with meprolight sights that you purchased stateside on a blue label deal was very unauthorized and I would have never done such a thing.

In my experience, getting a personal weapon overseas would not have been hard, getting it back would have been the trick. Getting caught with one would have been bad as well.

Both sum it up perfectly for my time in (1996-2006).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When I was an adviser we were on an operation with a tank company from the 1st ID. We came upon a small tunnel complex that I wanted to search. The ARVN battalion commander was adamant -- we don't search tunnels.

"But Dai Ue, the Americans always search them."

"You're an American."

Gulp!

As I started gingerly to lower myself into the tunnel, a BIG Black hand came over my shoulder, holding a Colt Single Action. "Go ahead, Sir. I'll cover you."

It was the tank company First Sergeant. The gun he was carrying had been issued to his Great-grandfather who was a member of the 10th Cavalry during the Spanish-American War, and had been carried by a family member in every war since then.

 

[Jim K]

Armies have tried to ban private weapons at least since the Eighth Legion moved into Gaul. It hasn't worked. Currently, the U.S. Army prohibits carrying unauthorized arms or ammunition, but it is still done. Whether and how effectively the ban is enforced depends on the local conditions and the command and, in part, on the enemy. A combatant nation may lodge a formal complaint; a terrorist gang is unlikely to complain to the UN about violations by formal military forces. (Of course they might complain to the American press, which will usually side with them.)

Jim

 

[sirgilligan]

I know of someone that replaced is M9 with his own Beretta because he had the slide crack on his issued weapon and he didn't trust them any more. He didn't ask permission and he didn't tell that he had done so.

 

[Bang!]

Getting them back thru customs can be difficult to impossible. Getting caught can cost you everything.

Me and a bunch of my friends were in Baghdad, spring 2003. I found a unique back room in an Iraqi weapons plant. What made the room unique was the dusty weapons piled up on wooden shelves. Thompson's, BAR's, Enfield's, Garand's and a slew of others I recognized from old WWII movies. I was in awe to say the least. I stared at the piles trying to conceive any possible scenario that would get one or all of those back to my house. Knew it was useless. The guy's that went home early had a chance thru customs. By the time I rotated home customs was going through even the seams of your dirty underwear.

Not much a chance these days of bringing your own weapons. Well, not bringing them back.

I do have two spare mags for my 1916 Lee Enfield. I'm not saying I found them in Baghdad in the spring of 2003. Just saying I have two spares.

 

[Lj1941]

Personal weapons

I served in the US Army 1963-1965. I was an enlisted E-3 type. I finished my tour in Korea in the 1st Cav/2nd Inf and never knew of anyone having their own personal sidearm.I was not in a line company but in Div Artillery HQ. Anyone caught with one would have been in deep do-do. That said it may have happened in the line companies but it was not common.

 

[Rock185]

I was a TC in the central Highlands of RVN in 1969. I saw only two personally owned weapons. The First Sgt. showed me his blued 4" Colt .38 Spcl. DA revolver with 4" barrel. Don't recall the the model, but it looked just like a pre MKIII Trooper. A guy in another unit had a commercial Browning Hi Power. I asked him where he got 9MM ammo for it. He said he got it from the Australians. I'd have to agree, the hard part would be getting anything back to the World. When I processed out, they wouldn't even let anybody bring back those little miniature toy-like Montagnard crossbows. Maybe they were toys, but troops had to leave them in a big pile with the rest, or risk not getting out of that place. We were all threatened with the notorious LBJ if we tried to sneak anything back......

 

[rszwieg]

LBJ? Not Johnson...

 

[kBob]

Long Bin Jail. In country US prison.

As you can see by the diversity of answers one factor was local command.

I know an officer that served in B'dad fairly early on that obtained and carried a P35 BHP and told his platoon leaders to not look to hard at their EM with regard to such.

WHen I was enlisted, before using my GI bill and being tempted by the extra ROTC Money, our unit had knife issues. The VN war was just over and most of our NCOs were combat vets. Offically we were read the riot act as it were on knives. Common pocket folding knives with bladed shorter than the width of your palm were OK but all else was officially VERBOTEN. Switch blades were especially to be avoided.

I had been in the unit but a few months when they had an open wall locker by the Company Commander. As ranking man in the six man room I was sort or responsible for the room and after I was inspected first followed the CO and First shirt around. Well he found a switch blade in a room mates locker. He opened and closed it and looked at it carefully and then turned to yell at me for allowing the man to have it in such an unsharpened and dirty condition and demanded I sharpen and clean it myself an show him how.

In the field he allowed sheath knives openly and turned a blind eye to the occasional one in the rear.

Meanwhile we had best not get busted by the MPs or seen by some other unit officer in the rear.

A year and a half later we got a new CO that was VERY by the book on the issue......but a lot of guys continued to carry switch blades and some just wore sheath knives where he could not see them. Some got busted with Company Grade Article -15 punishment up to reduction in grade one rank, 1/3 pay for 3 months, & days restriction to barrack and seven days additional duty.

Like I wrote earlier there were guns floating around all this time.

The silliest to me was one of the young Buck sargeants that was not a combat vet with a CIB had obtained a 4mm RF revolver. It actually got shot in the barracks for a month or two in the evenings. We fired it into a stack of catalogs and magazines from across the room and the little pop of a report of basically CB caps but 4mm never attracted attention.

For a bit one of the guys had a 4mm training rifle that at first glace appeared to be a K98 Mauser that also fired 4mm RF and it was suppressed after a fashion. It had vents in the bottom of the barrel and voids in the wooden forestock to act as expansion chambers. Being a bit harder to conceal than a hand gun this did not last long before being disposed of by selling to a German.

While you may not consider the following "weapons" the Army did. We kept a Diana air rifle with Walther sights on it for a couple of months in the barracks. I found it useful in giving trigger time to our worst shots and when it traveled with us to a missile site a lot of fun on rats down at the dump. With the barrel in the full cock position it would just fit under a wall locker. A team leader in another platoon had it when it was found and quietly went away. I always wondered if that MP still has it. For whatever reason a drug dog got interested in that wall locker and when they found no drugs they tipped it over to look underneath. No one got punished other than the loss of the Air Rifle though.

The other was an air pistol and I do not remember much about it other than it was a springer that cocked by dropping the barrel. It was not as accurate as I would have liked, but helped Weapons squad all make qualifying scores on the M1911A1. It only made dump rats angry. One night it went on tower guard on a missile site and it was found it only made field mice angry. It was found by a new Platoon Sargeant just over from the States and again it was just confiscated and disappeared.

Different time, different places, different people, different outcomes.

-kBob

 

[Hangingrock]

Has a Marine in Viet-Nam I was never in the rear with the gear. As previously stated handguns were prevalent. Brought back two handguns one acquired from a fellow Marine and the other a battle field pickup acquired from a NVA whom no longer needed it.

On Okinawa we were to have an inspection of our sea bag contents. No one inspected the contents of our sea bags as it was perceived we would have couldn't rid of contraband. A lead seal was placed on the sea bag.

We were non stop from Okinawa and were to have landed a El-Toro (Spelling?) but because of weather landed at Travis AFB. Customs saw that the sea bags were lead sealed an did not inspect the contents. From there we went to Treasure Island for processing and travel orders.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I know of someone that replaced is M9 with his own Beretta because he had the slide crack on his issued weapon and he didn't trust them any more. He didn't ask permission and he didn't tell that he had done so.

As F. Lee Bailey used to say, "Even a fish wouldn't get in trouble if he'd keep his damn' mouth shut."