Solenoid Actuated Rifle

[JonRosko]

Hi everyone longtime lurker first time poster I thought about this idea for the past year or so, but haven't anyone to bounce it off of so I'll let it loose on the THR since I'm sure within it huge membership I might receive some useful feedback.

So I was thinking about a new type of automatic rifle design that would use an electric solenoid to operate the action similar to a gas piston design. Power would come from a magneto hydrodynamic generator located parallel to the barrel or incorporated into the barrel itself, and the working plasma would be the burning gunpowder. Some sort of capacitor bank would be used to store the electrical energy generated by the MHD and a micro controller would control the power going to the solenoid which would operate the action. Some batteries would be included too.

The solenoid would be able to travel in two directions (to open and close the bolt), have a travel length equal to the bolts travel and a linear encoder would be hooked up to monitor the bolts velocity and acceleration. With the micro controller sending power the solenoid and monitoring its velocity and position the rifles cycling sequence would be a closed loop design.

As it stands most small arms operate on an open loop design. Some gas is routed to the piston -> the piston sends the bolt carrier flying -> and if everything works out well the bolt goes back to the end of the receiver and come back forward where it started. Added to that, various gas systems or blow back systems need to carefully balance the momentum of the parts, the amount of gas routed, where along the barrel the gas begins to actuate the action etc.

With a closed loop system using a dual action solenoid to control the movement of bolt carrier/bolt/action/whatever one has the flexibility to apply additional energy to move the bolt at any point of the bolt carriers action. This could be helpful for reliability reasons since one will be able to create an ideal velocity profile for various stages of the bolts cycle, monitor it, and make corrections along the way. Also, the micro controller may be programmed to allow for single shot, to fully automatic at any cyclical rate up to what the solenoid can handle.


One of the obvious drawbacks include additional components which could fail: Capacitors, Solenoid, Batteries, Microcontroller, wires. Its interesting that in the process of wanting to increase reliability, I'm introducing a complex solution which may compound the problem! lol

And the technology may not work like I have assumed. I'm not sure if gunpowder can be used as the plasma in a MHD. Do capacitors exist which could store and release a large enough charge to power the actuator? I don't really know...

Well thats all I have for now, any opinions are appreciated, even the rude ones as long as they contain relevant information

 

[Max C.]

Air itself is an insulator so it's unlikely you could get an MHG to work with a gun.

If electronics are going to be part of the weapon's design, then you may as well start with the rail gun or gauss gun concept.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have spent several afternoons discussing the same ideas with associates. Also note that once you can operate the action independent of capturing the energy, you free yourself of many constraints including conventional reciprocating mass arrangements.

As it stands most small arms operate on an open loop design

I don't think it's accurate to say this for many gas/piston operated systems. Many of these change pressure dwell characteristics as the resistance changes, so I don't believe they are 100% open loop. I would agree that Browning-style pistols are open loop, though, as an example of what you said.

 

[JonRosko]

Air itself is an insulator so it's unlikely you could get an MHG to work with a gun.

If electronics are going to be part of the weapon's design, then you may as well start with the rail gun or gauss gun concept.

I'm not well versed on the operation of MHD generators, but I expect that whatever air that would exist inside of the channel of the generator would be pushed out by the burning gunpowder thereby negating the airs effect.

Its interesting that you mention a rail guns since the solenoid itself would have to be a type of coil gun with multiple sections of wire coils to speed the inner rod along its way. Also the design is meant to be an incremental upgrade to reliably firing cased cartridges, using the conventional ammunition. A rail gun or guass gun are a completely different paradigm in weapons design and we will have to see if they will ever make their way into small arms. The thing is, I don't see a rail gun doing anything more than what can be done with a conventional rifle unless you want blast a projectile at insane velocities. Burning gunpowder gas has an upper limit on the velocity at which it can expand ultimately limiting how fast a smokeless rifle can throw a bullet. A rail gun would not be hindered by this, but you would be limited by how much recoil the shooter can take. A rail gun shooting a 200gr bullet at 3000fps will probably only recoil just slightly less than a conventional rifle shooting the same bullet at the same speed, since no additional rearward energy is directed back towards the shooter from burning gasses. Where a rail gun could shine is if it shoots super light bullets at super high velocities beyond the capabilities of a smokeless design. A 10gr bullet traveling at 10,000 fps? Yes Please

I don't think it's accurate to say this for many gas/piston operated systems. Many of these change pressure dwell characteristics as the resistance changes, so I don't believe they are 100% open loop. I would agree that Browning-style pistols are open loop, though, as an example of what you said.

Thats a good point. Your right that gas piston systems are closed loop for the length of the gas pistons/keys travel until the point where the pressure is released. So I guess most semiautomatic rifles are mixed closed/open loop designs.

Also note that once you can operate the action independent of capturing the energy, you free yourself of many constraints including conventional reciprocating mass arrangements.

Yes this would be another advantage. It would be interesting to see how differently one could package a receiver without having to accommodate large chunks of metal moving back and forth.

 

[Zak Smith]

One place to look for examples are the various electrically-powered autocannons, e.g. on ships and aircraft.

 

[rangerruck]

I work with electronics a bit, and I am trying to think of the energy released by a cartridge, having that energy create a almost coil like alternating device, and then power up and send the energy along to an electronic circuit, that also would have to have a battery memory circuit, a eprom or ram of some type, or several integrated circuits, and then a capacitor or capacitors, big enough to store enough energy, to move the kind of bolt mass we are looking for. Even the smoothest of bolts, along a gleeming smooth pathway, in the most pristine of conditions- never mind outdoor, rainy, combat type conditions.
Maybe I lack vision , but I don't see it happening. The same way I cannot see
a battery, ever moving a train, a plane, a ship, or a 18 wheeler, commercial, or combat type of the above. Size and weight are to huge to overcome, for the amount of energy it would need to store, as far as I can see.

 

[hogshead]

Just wondering what the advantage to this would be. Started to duck but noticed you were way over my head.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

I see a few problems, mainly weight and recoil. It could work on a hummer or a bradley though. Something else to think about, sure you can generate insane cyclical speeds but can your barrel handle them? the 249saw and mg-42 are just 2 machine guns that come to mind with quick change barrels. The miniguns with multiple rotating barrels are still king when it comes to blistering rates of fire.

 

[Howard Roark]

I've thought of this concept before as well. Having automatic yet adjustable bolt cyclic timing for rapid fire in high power competition would be interesting. With this type of system the same rifle could act as a single shot and semi auto, taking advantage of both systems.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

KISS

 

[JonRosko]

I am trying to think of the energy released by a cartridge, having that energy create a almost coil like alternating device, and then power up and send the energy along to an electronic circuit, that also would have to have a battery memory circuit, a eprom or ram of some type, or several integrated circuits, and then a capacitor or capacitors, big enough to store enough energy, to move the kind of bolt mass we are looking for.

I think that the capacitors which would be used don't necessarily have to be extremely large to get the kind of work we need out of them. Online I found a super capacitor rated at 10 Farads and 2.5 Volts while only being .5"x1.5" in size. This capacitor can hold 31 watts of energy which translates into 23 ft/lbs per second of work. Consider also the amount of work cordless drills can perform with only a 2 pound battery pack. On my design the battery pack need not be nearly as large since the batteries are constantly being recharged by the MHD generator.

The amount of energy required to move a bolt on the solenoid actuated rifle would probably be less than what is required in a conventional design since a large bolt carrier would not be needed. I'm not entirely sure how I would design the action on a solenoid actuated rifle, but I would probably try to keep moving part mass as low as possible simply for efficiencies sake.

Maybe I lack vision , but I don't see it happening. The same way I cannot see
a battery, ever moving a train, a plane, a ship, or a 18 wheeler, commercial, or combat type of the above. Size and weight are to huge to overcome, for the amount of energy it would need to store, as far as I can see.

You're right that battery technology simply isn't advanced enough yet to serve a majority of our transportation needs. Still the deficiencies of battery technology with regards to transportation don't exactly translate to the design I have in mind due to difference in weight of what is being moved as well as its mode of operation. A typical Sony PSP battery rated at 3.6 Volts and 1800mah contains 6.48 watt hours of work. A bank of only four of these should be sufficient to allow for operation of a rifle for extended periods of time. You'd be surprised at how much energy is contained inside of a battery. A 10 ounce battery is roughly equal to one ounce of TNT in energy! This sort of puts into perspective all of the reports we have of cellphone and laptop batteries exploding. We're carrying firecrackers in out pockets

I see a few problems, mainly weight and recoil. It could work on a hummer or a bradley though. Something else to think about, sure you can generate insane cyclical speeds but can your barrel handle them? the 249saw and mg-42 are just 2 machine guns that come to mind with quick change barrels. The miniguns with multiple rotating barrels are still king when it comes to blistering rates of fire.

Weight would be a factor since we're introducing batteries+electronics+solenoid+generator to replace a gas system. I don't think it would be a whole lot heavier though, since the bolt group can be made lighter, but then again I can only speculate. Having a blistering rate of fire would be useful for short bursts, especially if its fast enough that the user experiences what is essentially one recoil impulse. Heat issues would be the same for a solenoid rifle as it is for a conventional rifle, but the micro controller could intelligently switch to open bolt operation and a much slower rate of fire if you add a heat sensor to the barrel.

 

[JonRosko]

KISS

Indeed the KISS principle is a worthy design goal. However, I think the added complexity to achieve a full closed loop operation, adjustable rate of fire, and the flexibility for a receiever design apart from a typical reciprocating mass type may prove worthwhile.

 

[gunnie]

"K.I.S.S."

new firearms designs that never got started were also never finished. sure, some technolgy upgrades may be needed, but without a need existing need why bother?

john browning went to FN because his "crazy" semiauto A-5 design did not find favor with US mfgrs. must have been an unrealistic design?

gunnie

 

[rcmodel]

full closed loop operation, adjustable rate of fire, and the flexibility for a receiever design apart from a typical reciprocating mass type may prove worthwhile.

Like a chain gun then?

KISS!

rc

 

[Zak Smith]

Well, that's certainly an example of a system that does so; however, along the lines of what Howard Roark said, I believe one could find advantages other than simply rate of fire. For example, reciprocating mass movement is one of the things that upsets a sight picture during sighted rapid fire (e.g. action shooting, 3Gun, etc). There has already been development to reduce reciprocating mass in AR-15s in these applications and the effects are striking compared to a normal setup.

 

[rcmodel]

I guess I'm just in a glass half-full mood today.

But electonic ignition, micro-switch triggers, and electronics in general have been going to revolutionize firearms ever since I can remember.

Until somebody invents a battery that never runs down or needs charging, and totally water-proof and GI-proof systems, that don't cost 10 times more then conventional systems that get the job done just as well, it just ain't gonna happen in small arms.

And carrying around a charged high-voltage capacitor in a rain storm, that would fry your shorts if it took a hit in combat, scares the stuffing out of me.

rc

 

[Zak Smith]

It'd be an intersting R&D project anyway.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

But electonic ignition, micro-switch triggers, and electronics in general have been going to revolutionize firearms ever since I can remember.

And they have! What, you don't hunt with the Buck Rogers/Davy Crockett rifle?

http://www.cva.com/rifles-electra.html

It's sooooo much better than ordinary muzzleloaders because.... uh, well, because..... uhhh, I'll get back with ya.

 

[JonRosko]

There has already been development to reduce reciprocating mass in AR-15s in these applications and the effects are striking compared to a normal setup.

I remember defense review featuring a rifle which allowed the bolt carrier enough room to moved all of the way back and not hit the back of the receiever. It stopped and reversed direction by the recoil spring alone without coming into hard contact until it slammed a round into the chamber. This smoothed out the recoil to the point where the shooter could easily control the gun one handed on full auto.

But electonic ignition, micro-switch triggers, and electronics in general have been going to revolutionize firearms ever since I can remember.

Good points indeed. Your right that many "innovative" technologies developed for small arms have fallen by the wayside due to their lack of improving an already quite optimized mouse trap. However, it would be interesting to see what would result should someone actually sink the money into developing a solenoid actuated rifle and perhaps incorporating some of the technologies that never quite caught on. If I were to actually develop a solenoid rifle (instead of just thinking about it ) I start by utilizing conventional ammunition and then incorporating other technologies as time went on (like maybe caseless ammunition or electronic ignition).

One of the main disadvantages of incorporating electronics into a rifle is keeping the battery charged. With the addition of a generator which uses the burning gunpowder for power, we can mitigate this drawback to only needing to replace the batteries once they wear out.

Don't forget though that a micro controller would be incorporated into the rifle allowing a degree of rifle data gathering never before possible. Barrel heat, squib load detection, round count, even muzzle velocity could be tracked and relayed to the user.

and totally water-proof and GI-proof systems, that don't cost 10 times more then conventional systems that get the job done just as well, it just ain't gonna happen in small arms.

Water-proofness is another issue that I'm not sure how the MHD generator would handle, but now that I think about it an MHD generator isn't strictly necessary. Any sort of generator which could work off of a pressure differential would work, but how well I'm not so sure.

GI-proofness.... yes a person can make an otherwise reliable machine fail either through neglect or willful ignorance of the machines operation. Just look at Chernobyl. I think this can be helped by simplifying how the weapon is manipulated. Its sort of like the Apple iPhone. Sure I don't quite have the control I might want over it, but I've also never had to struggle with figuring out how to work it to begin with. Under the hood of the phone are all kinds of complexities that I can't even begin to imagine, but for me the user all of that underlying complexity is presented to me in fail safe manner.

As far as cost goes, it most likely will be expensive. But cost is a relative metric depending on the buyers expectations and needs. I could buy a custom $3500 GA Precision .308 to hunt a whitetail deer with or buy a regular $700 savage 110 to do the same thing with the same results. When it comes down to the basics, really these two rifles are the same thing; scoped bolt action rifles. But if I enter a tactical long range competition that $2800 price gap is the difference between being competitive and needlessly struggling.

If I developed a solenoid rifle into an actual product I don't think that I would market as a "revolutionary" new product destined to change the face shooting. Instead I would confine it to the enthusiast segment and if they can prove its worthwhile or a waste of time, then perhaps it would trickle down into the mass market.

Whatever happened to Remington's electronic primer ignition anyway? It seems they developed a product and tried to sell it to the wrong market. I remember seeing ads for it in magazines during the Clinton years. It had a key switch to turn the ignition system on and off, so maybe they released it to appease the anti-gun lobby more so than to deliver value to the average rifleman. Really the only time I hear lock time mattering is in long range high performance rifles, a far cray from where Remington was trying to place their product I believe.

 

[JonRosko]

And they have! What, you don't hunt with the Buck Rogers/Davy Crockett rifle?

http://www.cva.com/rifles-electra.html

It's sooooo much better than ordinary muzzleloaders because.... uh, well, because..... uhhh, I'll get back with ya.

Hehe , if Buck Rogers needed to hunt on planet Earth during muzzle loader season, no doubt he would use the Electra, if only because of the name alone!

I just read a review of that rifle on Cabela's and one user said that the primer system was effectively armed while loading it !!! Either CVA are a bunch of dummies's and can't design a safety that would physically disconnect electrical power to the primer, or the user didn't read the manual.

Anyway I just read another review and apparently it solves the problem of vertical stringing caused by the ignition of a shotgun primer moving the charge and bullet forward. It also took their team of engineers 3 YEARS to develop!!! I think this is destined to either be dropped by CVA, or remain a small segment of the market as a curiosity.

 

[Justin]

FWIW, there have been a small number of high-end target pistols built for use in Olympic-style shooting events that use firing pins activated by a solenoid. Of course, these run off of a battery rather than harnessing the power of burning powder.

 

[Zak Smith]

I remember defense review featuring a rifle which allowed the bolt carrier enough room to moved all of the way back and not hit the back of the receiever. It stopped and reversed direction by the recoil spring alone without coming into hard contact until it slammed a round into the chamber. This smoothed out the recoil to the point where the shooter could easily control the gun one handed on full auto.

The bolt carrier in an AR-15/M4/M16 does not hit the back of the receiver during operation. In actuality, the buffer impacts the end of the receiver extension tube ("buffer tube").

I believe if you increased the spring constant enough to stop the BCG without any impact, the overall cyclic rate would be slower and the system would be less reliable (because the input energy must be enough to cycle it far enough but not too far, yet it has to be tolerant of changes in friction load in the system). A decrased cyclic rate, ie slower cycling, is generally not what action shooters want to aid the speed of sighted shooting.

 

[bodab]

Well first one must keep in mind that if the Pragmatic articulator and the Thermostatic Expansion Valve must never be out of sync no more then four nano microns are the plasma envertor field will become charged with sub atomic ions thus causing the tan delta field to become sub cooled and we all know a sub cooled delta field would displace all the energy and the projectile will never gain enough speed to leave the barrel, but all this revolves around that fact that if the sensing buld is well insulated and that can be at times a PITA!!!

 

[JonRosko]

The bolt carrier in an AR-15/M4/M16 does not hit the back of the receiver during operation. In actuality, the buffer impacts the end of the receiver extension tube ("buffer tube").

I believe if you increased the spring constant enough to stop the BCG without any impact, the overall cyclic rate would be slower and the system would be less reliable (because the input energy must be enough to cycle it far enough but not too far, yet it has to be tolerant of changes in friction load in the system). A decrased cyclic rate, ie slower cycling, is generally not what action shooters want to aid the speed of sighted shooting.

Thank you for clarifying that for me about the AR-15. The rifle I mentioned earlier is called the Ultimax 100. There is a youtube video showing some guys shooting them and it looks like recoil is quite mild. However, the Ultimax is a light machine gun (11 pounds), and has a fairly slow rate of fire (400-600 rpm), so those factors play a significant role when comparing its recoil to the ar-15.

You are right about the implications of only sending enough power to the BCG so it would cycle without impact under ideal conditions perhaps affecting reliability when things get dirty. To mitigate that, I expect the designer would have give additional travel to the BCG so when dirt or fouling slows things down the BCG would still have moved far enough back to clear the magazine. I think a substantial amount of extra travel would have to added in because in dirty situations the BCG powers through dirt, doesn't fully load the spring, switches direction and tries to power back through the dirt with the non fully loaded spring.

The Ultimax does have quite a few users though so information probably exists somewhere about how reliable it is.

 

[JonRosko]

Well first one must keep in mind that if the Pragmatic articulator and the Thermostatic Expansion Valve must never be out of sync no more then four nano microns are the plasma envertor field will become charged with sub atomic ions thus causing the tan delta field to become sub cooled and we all know a sub cooled delta field would displace all the energy and the projectile will never gain enough speed to leave the barrel, but all this revolves around that fact that if the sensing buld is well insulated and that can be at times a PITA!!!

This post would easily fit into one of those Star Trek Enterprise round table discussions.