crestoncowboy
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I change switches, solenoids, coils, and cylinders all day, every day. Some are thousands of dollars a pop.....
I wouldn't want them in any gun.
I wouldn't want them in any gun.
Solenoid action
- Thread starter Ten Mile Knives
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edwardware
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- Feb 23, 2010
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It's not a crazy question, and you're not wrong to ask. I think the relative importance of high reliability vs everything else (cost/convenience/blinkenlights) constrains the development.
I carry a sidearm designed nearly a century before I was born, using materials and technologies that existed for 2 centuries. As a result, we have a really excellent understanding of the failure modes. If you can halve the weight and the cost by adding microprocessors and a USB charging port. . . I might buy one, but I won't carry it.
mcb
Member
going to ramble, you've been warned...
It's hard to beat chemical energy for energy density so trying to cycle the action with a power source other than propellant gas pressure is going to, in most cases, be bigger, heavier and less efficient than scavenging some of the energy from the propellant gases to cycle. The only successfully electrically powered weapon system I can think of is the mini-gun and some of it larger brothers (the biggest ones like the GAU-8 are hydraulically powered). But in the case of man portable the micro mini-guns are the close we have come to a electromechanically powered small arms.
But electronic ignition on the other hand has huge potentials in small arms if the market would not be so stubbornly resistance to change (as many of the comments here clearly illustrate). Electronic firing is common in anything 20mm and above. Most of those cartridges use electrically ignited primers (though some of them have a mechanical backup, primer that can be electrically or mechanically ignited).
In a bolt gun the big advantage is you no longer have the sear/striker engagement pushing up on the back end of the bolt. Without that moderate force pushing up on that lever (bolt body) it would be easier to get a bolt lockup that is perfectly square and symmetric to the breach/chamber for squeezing the last bit of accuracy out of things.
With electrically primed cartridges the trigger is no long mechanically tied to the guns fire-control so the trigger can move positions, change shape, and have a variety of tactile feels and these changes could be as radically as you wanted to try (again US gun owners are unfortunately highly resistant to change hence the Remington EtronX rifles being nearly indistinguishable from the regular 700). Think about the possibilities for increased accuracy if we can move the trigger where is make the most ergonomic sense not because the action forces it to be there. Think about changes to configurations moving the action around without worrying about the trigger placement.
Bullpups could have equally good triggers!
The ability to interface with an assistive fire control aiming system like Track-Point with no mechanical lock time and no mechanical actuator to release the hammer/striker.
In a semi-auto pistol think about what could change if you no longer need a mechanical trigger bar that needs to get by the magazine to the sear. A double feed pistol magazine becomes much easier. No striker or hammer behind the breach face would allow red-dots to be buried in that volume taken up by traditional fire controls.
A revolver with no hammer spring to fight in double action! Old school meets new school.
In belt feed guns electically primed would be huge, the rate of fire could be tied to pressure on the trigger. Light pressure could create a slower suppressive fire-rate and when a target is actually seen heavier pressure could increase the rate of fire to increase the likelihood of a hit. You could even integrate an IMU (inertial measurement unit, ie accelerometers and gyros) and could use feedback from the sensors and user to adjust the rate of fire to help the user keep the muzzle from climbing while firing again increasing the probability of hits.
Think how much simpler many firearms get when you eliminate all the mechanism tied to the mechanical fire-control and replace it with a single electrical contact (ground through the barrel/receiver) and a switch (trigger) and a small pack of electronics/battery that can be as small as 700 trigger pack or a drop in AR trigger.
Think of the nightmare for the ATF when the difference between an eclectically primed semi-auto and full-auto would become a software change.
Electrically primed ammo could dramatically change the firearms market if the firearms market wanted it. Unfortunately they do not. Remington EtronX primers are still made for the few guys still reloading for it but mostly they live on on some less lethal weapons systems used by the military and police.
-rambling complete, for now...
It's hard to beat chemical energy for energy density so trying to cycle the action with a power source other than propellant gas pressure is going to, in most cases, be bigger, heavier and less efficient than scavenging some of the energy from the propellant gases to cycle. The only successfully electrically powered weapon system I can think of is the mini-gun and some of it larger brothers (the biggest ones like the GAU-8 are hydraulically powered). But in the case of man portable the micro mini-guns are the close we have come to a electromechanically powered small arms.
But electronic ignition on the other hand has huge potentials in small arms if the market would not be so stubbornly resistance to change (as many of the comments here clearly illustrate). Electronic firing is common in anything 20mm and above. Most of those cartridges use electrically ignited primers (though some of them have a mechanical backup, primer that can be electrically or mechanically ignited).
In a bolt gun the big advantage is you no longer have the sear/striker engagement pushing up on the back end of the bolt. Without that moderate force pushing up on that lever (bolt body) it would be easier to get a bolt lockup that is perfectly square and symmetric to the breach/chamber for squeezing the last bit of accuracy out of things.
With electrically primed cartridges the trigger is no long mechanically tied to the guns fire-control so the trigger can move positions, change shape, and have a variety of tactile feels and these changes could be as radically as you wanted to try (again US gun owners are unfortunately highly resistant to change hence the Remington EtronX rifles being nearly indistinguishable from the regular 700). Think about the possibilities for increased accuracy if we can move the trigger where is make the most ergonomic sense not because the action forces it to be there. Think about changes to configurations moving the action around without worrying about the trigger placement.
Bullpups could have equally good triggers!
The ability to interface with an assistive fire control aiming system like Track-Point with no mechanical lock time and no mechanical actuator to release the hammer/striker.
In a semi-auto pistol think about what could change if you no longer need a mechanical trigger bar that needs to get by the magazine to the sear. A double feed pistol magazine becomes much easier. No striker or hammer behind the breach face would allow red-dots to be buried in that volume taken up by traditional fire controls.
A revolver with no hammer spring to fight in double action! Old school meets new school.
In belt feed guns electically primed would be huge, the rate of fire could be tied to pressure on the trigger. Light pressure could create a slower suppressive fire-rate and when a target is actually seen heavier pressure could increase the rate of fire to increase the likelihood of a hit. You could even integrate an IMU (inertial measurement unit, ie accelerometers and gyros) and could use feedback from the sensors and user to adjust the rate of fire to help the user keep the muzzle from climbing while firing again increasing the probability of hits.
Think how much simpler many firearms get when you eliminate all the mechanism tied to the mechanical fire-control and replace it with a single electrical contact (ground through the barrel/receiver) and a switch (trigger) and a small pack of electronics/battery that can be as small as 700 trigger pack or a drop in AR trigger.
Think of the nightmare for the ATF when the difference between an eclectically primed semi-auto and full-auto would become a software change.
Electrically primed ammo could dramatically change the firearms market if the firearms market wanted it. Unfortunately they do not. Remington EtronX primers are still made for the few guys still reloading for it but mostly they live on on some less lethal weapons systems used by the military and police.
-rambling complete, for now...
CapnMac
Member
Well, OP may be over complicating this.
Solenoid can hold closed as well as open. So, use the solenoid to hold the bolt closed (perhaps with a flapper lock at certain rifle cartridge pressures). Then retract the bolt electronically.
The retraction stroke actually needs the most monitoring--solenoids can be very fast, faster than the case rim might withstand.
Solenoids are sexy in the engineering sense, for not needing a lot of things to get a reliable stroke & force. Carbon rod and a copper coil. And, you avoid issues with magnetizing ferrous metal parts meant to move past each other reliably. (Using, say a linear accelerator or coil electromagnets around a bolt can be complicated when the bolt takes a magnetic "set.")
There's another technique, too--add a worm screw and use a stepper motor to hold closed/open. Which also allows two different "speeds" of motion, too.
The "gotcha" is that such things are not enough better to change from the existing technology. As noted above, there's a surplus of energy to tap into to operate the firearm.
Solenoid can hold closed as well as open. So, use the solenoid to hold the bolt closed (perhaps with a flapper lock at certain rifle cartridge pressures). Then retract the bolt electronically.
The retraction stroke actually needs the most monitoring--solenoids can be very fast, faster than the case rim might withstand.
Solenoids are sexy in the engineering sense, for not needing a lot of things to get a reliable stroke & force. Carbon rod and a copper coil. And, you avoid issues with magnetizing ferrous metal parts meant to move past each other reliably. (Using, say a linear accelerator or coil electromagnets around a bolt can be complicated when the bolt takes a magnetic "set.")
There's another technique, too--add a worm screw and use a stepper motor to hold closed/open. Which also allows two different "speeds" of motion, too.
The "gotcha" is that such things are not enough better to change from the existing technology. As noted above, there's a surplus of energy to tap into to operate the firearm.
Blue68f100
Member
The problem with solenoids is there is lag time weather it's energizing or de-energizing. This can cause all kind of problems.
Had/have a printer that started acting up when printing multiple pages. 1 or 2 pages was never a problem. The cause was that the foam buffer pad had failed and this increased the time needed to release. Any thing that is electromagnetic will have varying time. May be consistent when know but things don't last.
Had/have a printer that started acting up when printing multiple pages. 1 or 2 pages was never a problem. The cause was that the foam buffer pad had failed and this increased the time needed to release. Any thing that is electromagnetic will have varying time. May be consistent when know but things don't last.
My two cents is that it's an incredibly interesting idea that I find fascinating as an electrical engineer. However, as an electrical engineer, I have one simple concern:
Sometimes, electrical things ,whether it be a logic gate or a capacitor, or even an entire sequential/combinational machine ,will just not work because it doesn't feel like it.
This, I think, would be a safety liability. I still see potential, would love to tinker with a prototype.
Sometimes, electrical things ,whether it be a logic gate or a capacitor, or even an entire sequential/combinational machine ,will just not work because it doesn't feel like it.
This, I think, would be a safety liability. I still see potential, would love to tinker with a prototype.
Kp321
Member
Taking a different tack on your idea, electronic ignition was mentioned. Back in the 60’s I remember a single shot 22 free pistol that used an electric sear release. Don’t remember the details except that it had a micro switch trigger. Being the 60’s there were no printed circuits or microprocessors involved.
Jim Watson
Member
Likely the Green Electric. Mr Green also made electric triggers for conversion of target rifles.
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