Some intimidating reloading today...... (well, for me, anyway)

[duck911]

Well, I consider myself a newbie reloader compared to most of you and all of my experience has been limited to bottleneck rifle loads.

Today was my first crack at loading some straight-walled cartridges.

First on-deck was some loads for my new-to-me Ruger SRH 44 mag, using 240 GR XTP's and 18 GR of 2400 (light end of the range). I've done a lot of reading here but until you've experienced belling and crimping a handgun load, it's all just theory. Anyhow, the process went smooth and I seated the bullet on one pass then crimped on the next pass. They look right to me?

Next came the 45-70. I gotta tell ya, having sent plenty of .204 and .223 downrange with H322, a full dang case of this stuff was just flat INTIMIDATING in the 45-70 brass. Good gawd.

I am using 300 GR HP's over 57 GR of H322 which is on the very low end of the charge for this powder and bullet.

Now to see how they shoot!

--Duck911

 

[MtnCreek]

Looks like you need a little more crinp. You may also want to seat the 44 mag a bit deeper.

 

[duck911]

Thanks for the feedback.

I can go back and add some crimp - wasn't sure exactly how much I needed!

Just curious, what would be the advantage of seating the 44's deeper? Are they safe to shoot the way the sit (they fit my revolver just fine)

thanks!

--Duck911

 

[MtnCreek]

Seating depth should not be less than book stated min, otherwise you'll be fine. I would seat a bit deeper to take full advantage of the canalure.

Before you load a lot up, check some in your revolver to make sure you didn't over-bell.

 

[MtnCreek]

Forgot to mention, there's a Sticky that discusses this very well by people way more experenced than me. I think it's called 'Lee FCD'.

 

[Walkalong]

Looks like you need a little more crinp. You may also want to seat the 44 mag a bit deeper

I agree. A little deeper with a little more crimp.

there's a Sticky ...................................... I think it's called 'Lee FCD'.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815

 

[db_tanker]

duck911,

looks pretty good, already been given good advice about the crimp on the 44...didn't catch what you were shooting the 45-70 out of...single shot or lever?

IF it is a lever, then I would probably go with a bit stouter crimp on that one as well.


As for intimidating, wait until you wanna try a few 500 grain RN or 525 grain WLN-GC lead slugs...those things are fun...

 

[duck911]

Thanks guys for the feedback link to the sticky. I will re-crimp both tomorrow (only loaded 10 of each today just to get the feel for it). I think I have a better feel for what to look for now.

The 45-70 will be shot out of a Marlin 1895 GBL and although the 44 mag loads are light this time, both will be hunting guns with heavy loads so I'll go with some beefier crimps

 

[flashhole]

Those 44 Mag loads look fine to me. I don't own a 44 mag but I have loaded thousands of rounds for a 357 mag. The 45-70 is a bit light if you are using a roll crimp die. I have been loading 45-70 for my Marlin Guide Gun since 1997. My favorite crimp die/method is the Redding Taper Crimp Die. Very easy to adjust and applies the crimp to a significantly greater surface area of the bullet. It even helps minimize runout.

 

[Walkalong]

My favorite crimp die/method is the Redding Taper Crimp Die. Very easy to adjust and applies the crimp to a significantly greater surface area of the bullet

I like them too. It works on jacketed bullets just as well as it does on these PowerBond plated bullets. Just don't crimp back far enough to ruin the base.

 

[BigBob3006]

You may notice that two of your loads have a ring around the bullet between the cannelure and the tip. this is caused when excess pressure is exerted by the die during the seating/crimp step. If the seating and crimping are separate steps for you, then during the crimping the crimping step. This happens when the bullet is not seated deep enough. The .45-70 bullet doesn't have this ring. That is because the .45 bullet is seated slightly deeper into the case before the crimping stage begins. A good rule of thumb, IMHO, is to seat the bullet slightly deeper than half of the cannelure. i.e. I would seat the bullet in the .45-70 case just a little deeper so that when the case is viewed from the side the cannelure shows above the case. As for the amount of crimp, I think that is fine.

 

[flashhole]

The ring around the bullet can also be caused by insufficient case belling requiring excessive pressure during bullet seating.

 

[duck911]

The ring around the bullet can also be caused by insufficient case belling requiring excessive pressure during bullet seating.

That's what caused the ring in this case on the 44 mags - it was there from the seating, and before the crimping.

The 45-70's had belling enough to seat the bullet about 1/3 of the way down.

The 44 mag had only enough belling to allow the bullet to sit in the case for seating, barely.

I had read in numerous places that one method and the other were preferred.

In reality, I think somewhere between the two will be right in the long run - the 45-70's seated pretty easy, and the 44 mags ended up with a ring on the bullet.

 

[41 Mag]

Personally I think your crimp looks fine. That is how about 99% of mine look with jacketed bullets. I don't even have a count on how many I have loaded over the years, but have run through several kegs of 2400 and 296 in calibers from 357 thru 454.

I have found that over crimping is way more destructive to accuracy than under crimping. I generally only use enough to roll the lip of the case into the bottom of the grove like your initial picture there. I try to only bell the mouth enough that I can actually tell that the lip has been moved out a tad with my thumbnail. The more you work it the sooner your case necks will split once you get into higher loads. As long as they don't move during recoil you have enough crimp even for the slower powders like 296 and 110. This said it doesn't hurt to play with it a bit to see how it spread or shrinks your groups.

With most of todays dies, your going to see them size the case wall a bit smaller than necessary which after you seat the bullet will show a narrowing between the bullet base and the rim on the case. This gives you tension on the bullet when it is seated, and along with the crimp is usually sufficient to hold it in place up to the strongest loads, or heaviest bullets. Lead will be another story and does require a bit more bite due to it's lube and slickness of the lead in general.

I would shoot what you have, and check for accuracy and if you have a chrono look at the differences in shot to shot velocity, if your getting good accuracy out to 50yds and your SD is low I would leave well enough alone.

Just for comparison sake, here are two groups shot freehand at 40yds, with the same revolver. Everything is identical other than the left groups has a bit more crimp, about 1/8 turn. The two flyers were the shooter not the loads,

This was done to show a close friend how and why his loads were not grouping as well as he thought they should. His crimp is the one on the left. Different brands of bullets and different brands of cases can and do cause you to possibly have to set the crimp a bit more, but like I mentioned, I would try them like you have them and adjust from there.

 

[Walkalong]

Six shots at 7 yards through the chrono at 5 yards. Yep, happy with my crimp. I'll blame the one shot out on myself.

 

[JimKirk]

Pull the seating stem out of the die and clean up the sharp edge that is making the line on your bullets. Chuck the stem in a drill and hold a small piece of 600 grit sandpaper to just round the inter edge slightly. Go easy, it does not take much to do the job.

Jimmy K

 

[MrOldLude]

Good topic. Though I've always found straight-wall cases a little easier than necked. Less Stretching, no trimming, no lube.

 

[duck911]

Well, quick update:

All of the reloads shot very well. All of the crimps held up great (I was constantly unloading, checking, and reloading the 44 Mag. I shot the 45-70 one shot at a time though)

The 44 Mag is a BLAST to shoot! I mean, FUN!!!!!

The 45-70 may need some Trailboss for plinking though. Even though these were lever action strength loads they were loaded at the bottom of the powder charge and it's STILL a handful.

Anyhow, it was my first foray into straight walled reloading and it went pretty well and I have learned a lot.

thanks all for the feedback,

--Duck911

 

[Seedtick]

The 44 Mag is a BLAST to shoot! I mean, FUN!!!!!

Anyhow, it was my first foray into straight walled reloading and it went pretty well and I have learned a lot

+1
That's what we like to hear!

Seedtick

 

[788Ham]

Glad you like that .44! They're a handful too, if too much powder put in them, otherwise, they are a BLAST to shoot. Glad you're having a good time with the reloading, BE CAREFUL !

Walkalong, that's dandy hog leg, pretty good shot too!

 

[flashhole]

That is a nice gun, thanks for sharing the pic.

 

[Lost Sheep]

How much crimp varies by load

How much crimp you want varies on how much the cartridge will be subjected to handling and recoil forces.

In your revolver, each time you fire it, the gun recoils back (taking the remaining, unfired cartridges with it). Jerking the loaded cartridges backwards tends (through the inertia of the slug/bullet) to separate the brass case from the bullet. Eventually, the bullet may protrude from the front of the cylinder. Not good.

The heavier the recoil, the more crimp you need to keep the bullet in the case. Also, the lighter the gun and the heavier the bullet.

In your rifle, the crimp does the opposite. It keeps the bullet from being pushed deeper in the case. If you let the bullet seat deeper, you get higher pressures. Not good.

Recoil in a tubular magazine (lever action, mostly) rifle subjects the cartridges in the tube to smacking each other on the front and back ends. (Also a reason to avoid spire point bullets in such guns). In box magazine fed guns, hitting the insides of the magazine can drive the bullets deeper in their cases, but the main danger is when the bullet nose hits the feed ramp.

Second: A good crimp holds the bullet tight in the case at the moment of ignition. Some powders require a certain amount of pressure for the powder to burn properly. The crimp helps establish that threshold pressure.
In summary.

Third: A crimp bends and stretches the metal at the case mouth. This "cold working" shortens case life. So, if you can get by with a more gentle crimp, that will reduce the deleterious effect of all that cold working.

So in summary:

For your revolver, the crimp is very important with heavy loads, not so important with light loads.

For any gun crimp is important with slow powders.

More crimp than you need unnecessarily shortens case life. It's a trade-off.

Good Luck.

Your crimps look good to me for light/medium loads of 2400. In my revolvers, with light loads of Unique or Bullseye, I don't use any crimp at all, just remove the case mouth belling and squeeze the case mouth enough for a good friction fit.

Lost Sheep

 

[Hay Creek]

Here are a couple of loads for your .45-70. They're the ones I use in my high wall.
I use 24.3 gr of Accurate 5744 behind a 405 gr lead bullet for silhouette and can shoot them all day.
For plinking, 29 gr of 5744 and 300 gr lead.
Both are very accurate in my rifle.
I've tried Trail boss and find it a good powder but the pressure levels are higher than I want for the velocity it delivers.

 

[db_tanker]

If you have any cast in the 300-400 grain range then try out a starting load of 12.5 grains of trail boss. I have used trail boss in 30 WCF, 35 Remmy, 45-70, 357 Max, 445 Supermag, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 416 Taylor and 300 Win Mag.

In the 45-70 and 300 Win Mag I have never even come close to seeing any over-pressure signs. It is those two that scare me the most as they have the largest case volume to fill as for my cartridges I reload for. IN FACT, on the lower end, it helps me to see which cases I have that need annealing due to their sooting up the necks too much...shows me the cases are hardening.

Other good powders to use for the 45-70 are 3031, 2400, Lil Gun, 1680, 5744, 4227. Most of those you can get pretty easy loads on the starting end. AND you can use the likes of 2400, Lil Gun, 4227 and 5744 with your 44 Mag as well...

Damn nice group btw...

 

[flashhole]

tanker wrote - "..... it helps me to see which cases I have that need annealing due to their sooting up the necks too much...shows me the cases are hardening."

That's an interesting observation and comment. I never thought to use sooty case necks as an indicator that the brass is becoming work hardened and may need annealing. Thanks for the tip.