Some notes on the +P .38 Special question.

[BluesBear]

Glock19fan, no that's not it. The bullet looks the same. but the Sku is Q4296.

I'll did out the camera and post some photos tomorrow. When the weather gets nicer and I feel a little better, I'll get out and do some penetration/expansion tests.

 

[DHart]

Thatguy... you're right... having the right velocity (not too slow, nor too fast) is very important for the design parameters of any given bullet one might choose.

Speers new .38 spl. +P 135 gr. Gold Dot SB (SB standing for "short barrel") was designed to fully expand and to penetrate well at 860 fps! That's the velocity this round flies at from a 2" .38 spl. snubnose. I've seen the test results and this bullet performs very well indeed at 860-1060 fps. If you look at the deep, thin walls of the hollowpoint cavity you can see why it would expand so readily. Same holds true for the .44 caliber 200 gr. Gold Dot... deep, thin cavity walls.. designed to expand fully at .44 special velocities of just 900 fps or so.

On the other hand, the 125 gr. semi-jacketed hollowpoints typically are designed to expand more in the 1200 fps range. So the important thing is to determine the appropriate velocity windows that any given bullet was designed for so you can tailor your loads to be within those velocity windows. Many, including myself, would argue that certain penetration with possible expansion is much more desireable than certain expansion with possible penetration. I like the heavier bullets which tend to penetrate better, even if full expansion isn't necessarily a sure thing. Sign me up anyday for heavier, slower moving bullets. I'm not a fan of the lighter, faster moving bullets.

 

[fecmech]

Many years ago when I was not as financially well off as today I loaded .357 mag loads in .38 cases cause I did not have any mag cases. I loaded for a Ruger 6" single action at the time and everything was loaded to the max. The lyman manual at the time listed a load of 10grs of 2400 with the 168gr. "Keith" bullet for a max .38 load (1000fps) and I planned to try some in my "J"frame chief spec. I somehow mixed up my mag loads (10 gr. Herco/168 bullet) and shot 5 in the chief! I was young and dumb cause I should have stopped at one, the gun did hold together and I still shoot it today with .38's of course. I have to chuckle when I hear guys agonizing over Plus "P" in a J frame. Those mag loads that I shot then were max in the Lyman Manual of the time and todays Lyman lists 3 grs less powder for max! They had to be well over 40k pressure wize.

 

[BluesBear]

Here are the promised pics.

 

[HighVelocity]

I took my 38 to the range today and put a cylinder of these babies downrange and the difference in bang and flash was HUGE in comparison to the Remington +P that I got at WallyWorld

I wish I had a chrony to get a real comparison.

 

[Glock19Fan]

BluesBear- Hope you get to feeling better soon.

Im interested in seeing those test/expansion results. Whatever the medium, do you think you will do any shooting through 4 layers of denim?

HighVelocity- Do you think the flash would be enough to effect someones eyes in low light situations? Im suprised Winchester didnt use flash suppressed powder in that load, especially since its a LE only load.

Thanks!

 

[BluesBear]

Thanks G19F, the physical therapy is helping (helping keep me sore) but I am still a little shakey walking on rough ground. Hopefully I'll be out of the brace by June.

I have blue jeans legs that were rescued from cut-off shorts. I'll probaly just do some water bag, clay block and newspring/phone book tests. I know they're not as good as Jell-O but I figure if a bullet expands decently in all three it'll be a good indicator. Especially since I'll test it along side some proven stuff.

The good news is that my brother is moving back from Las Wages in early June so he can help me with the testing. I'm trying to find someone in my area with a chrono who would like to help out too.

Until then I am just accumulating an assortment of ammo to test.
My local dealer FINALLY got in some of the .38 Special Speer 135gr Gold Dot.

 

[omcf]

mr. bluesbear

While researching the best ammunition for my J-frame revolver, I came across several of your posts expressing admiration for the 38 spl +P+ 147gr round (Q4296). I was wondering if you could give me a guess as to fpe out of a 1.78" bbl? If you have ever chrono'd out of a 2" bbl, that would be great. Thank you.

 

[OldSchooler]

Great thread. Thanks!

 

[Socrates]

Hi
I would like to say that the preceived quality and velocity of old ammo may well be a myth.

First, chronos were very expensive, so figuring bullet speed in factory loads was not easy. Sure, you had what they said, but...

I bought a 44 special, charter arms bulldog, and, some 44 special remmington 250 grain lead bullet loads. 20 bucks for 20 rounds, at a time when that would get you three prime rib dinners.

That ammo recoiled like crazy, created a huge blast, and fireball, but, the bullet was going so slow that from the side you could SEE it go down range. It was also the most worthless, inaccurate stuff ever. Starting at 15 yards, then 15, NO HITS on a man size target. Finally at 7 yards, it looked like a really bad shotgun pattern. My friend had the same problem.

I went to the gunshop, bought some 240 grain Hornady HP's, and loaded some mimimum 44 magnum loads(HS-6?), and went to the range again.
Same range, all head shots. FAR less recoil, less blast, and far greater accuracy. Shot that gun to death with that load.

My point here is in the day, the factories could get away with using cheap powders, that had tons of blast, noise, and recoil, and terrible ballistics, but, since we couldn't really test velocity, we didn't know they were screwing us, or, we couldn't prove it...

The irony is the commercial market doesn't exactly get first pick on powder quality, so, what Remmington was using must have been REALLY bad...

S

 

[Jeff F]

I too have loaded .38 spl cases at .357 mag levels . Have never had any case issues. I did have some signs of high pressure during load development and backed off a bit. These are my loads that I shoot in my guns only. My cases were well marked so as not to be confused with reg .38s. Now I just use Mag cases for mag loads and load .38 cases for plinking or targets.