Some Thoughts and Questions on Dropping the Slide

[Jammer Six]

I'll tell you what the range officer at our plate league taught me.

The sequence is:

1. Take your finger off the trigger.
2. Drop the magazine.
3. Rack the slide, ejecting any live round.
4. Open the slide, and either hold it all the way open or lock it back.
5. Show the range officer that the chamber is empty.
6. Drop the slide at full speed. (I learned all this because I eased the slide forward.)
7. Point the weapon downrange, and pull the trigger. Based on what I've witnessed, it's a really good idea to do this part as if there's a round in the chamber, because sometimes, there is. I now believe in the bullet fairy.

What was taught to me is that dropping the slide and dry firing are double-checks.

Once you show the range officer that the chamber is clear, in theory, the weapon should be clear, and shouldn't have a round available to fire.

However...

You drop the slide at full speed so that if there's a magazine in the weapon, (remember, this is a double-check. There's not supposed to be a magazine in the well at this point.) the round will chamber. If you ease it forward, there could be a magazine in the weapon, and the round could fail to chamber, leaving the weapon with a magazine in it and a round trying to load. As far as the league is concerned, that condition is "NOT CLEAR".

If you then dry fire, and the weapon doesn't fire, there is no magazine in the weapon, and there is no round in the chamber.

The weapon is clear.

That all said, it's their rules, and I want to shoot plates, so I follow them.

As I wrote this, I realized that if there was an empty magazine in the weapon, this procedure wouldn't catch it- no round would chamber, and the weapon wouldn't fire. It would pass, unless someone spotted the magazine.

However, thinking about it, it's pretty unlikely that you could leave the line with a weapon with a magazine in it. There's too many eyes watching from too many angles.

Anyway, that's the drill, and that's what you have to do in our plate league. I think that when they designed the drill, they were more concerned with designing a drill that could be used rapidly and efficiently for large numbers of shooters and guns with varying degrees of skill, that would make absolutely sure that every single weapon is clear when it leaves the line. I also think they were (and are) more concerned with a drill that works, every time, for everyone, than with the slight damage that is done to any one weapon.

I also suppose that if it bothers you, you don't want to shoot in our plate league. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm saying that our plate league isn't a good league for someone who would be bothered by this drill, because the drill isn't optional.

That all said, I'd buy a beater that I didn't mind having beat to dust by the safety drill before I'd stop shooting plates. The plate league is fun.

 

[Ky Larry]

Does anyone know if Mr. Browning ever addressed this question? If so, what did he have to say about the issue? Thanks.

 

[Zak Smith]

USPSA/IPSC range commands do not require that the slide be "dropped", just that you show clear, slide forward, hammer down.

 

[1911Tuner]

WWJMB say?

Uncle John told me:

"Boy...if I ever see you do that again, I'm gonna nail your worthless hide to a
tack room door!"

 

[wanderinwalker]

For 1911Tuner,
I recall reading in an old issue of Guns and Ammo (okay, stop laughing everybody...) a reader question wondering whether or not to depress the trigger while cycling the slide on a 1911. The response, written by Ross Seyfried (I believe, but will submit to public flogging if I am mistaken ) stated in no uncertain terms that your finger ONLY goes into the trigger guard when it is time to rock-and-roll.

He then outlined a sear-check for used 1911s. You locked the slide back, triple checked that the chamber is clear, made sure there was no magazine in the pistol and lay the pistol down on a flat surface. Then the check was to drop the slide with the slide release, without touching any other part of the pistol. If the hammer falls to half-cock in this check the sear engagement is deemed unsafe and in need of repair. The response also claimed that he had seen triggers as light as 2 pounds and even under pass this test.

Your thoughts?

(Asking as to growing curiousity in 1911s due to close proximity of legal age to purchase handgun for self.)

 

[Dave Sample]

WOW! you guys sure read a lot and talk a lot! I have seen so much tension on the middle leg of a sear spring that the disconnector would hold the slide back! One range officer does not make all the rules about dropping slides on 1911's. I always did that to watch folks like some of you cringe. I have dropped the slides on both EAGLES hundreds of times and will continue to do so as I do my carry Commander when I load it. This rumor stared with aluminum triggers and the Gold Cups that used a very heavy ugly triggers and they had to do a little spring and lever on the sear to compensate for a really stupid trigger group. There was just as much bad trigger work in the old days as there is now and many amateurs messed up triggers, hammers, and sears so the hammer would follow or go to full auto at the drop of a slide. Bad work reaps bad results. Good trigger work done by the Pros holds up great. If the sear is cut right, the hammer hooks are cut right, the trigger fitted with no play except fore and aft, the springs properly adjusted, you should be able to handle the gun any way you want to.

 

[Onmilo]

I am convinced the majority of range officers are gunsmiths and idiots.
I have been kicked off the firing line for easing my slide forward instead of dropping it.
I won't return to that league and I don't regret the decision.
I know where my muzzle is and I don't need to "be stylin'" when I clear my weapons.
I don't forcefully drop the slide on any semi-automatic and respect those that don't.
As a gunsmith, I make pretty good change from repairing the guns of those that do.

 

[1911Tuner]

Quotes

Quote:

As a gunsmith, I make pretty good change from repairing the guns of those that do.


Me too...Me too.
___________________

Wanderinwalker, I completely agree with Mr. Seyfred on the finger on the trigger part. The old advice was to hold the trigger whenever loading the gun. It's bad advice, but there it was just the same. The sear check is
okay to do...once...right after finishing a trigger job. Beyond that, It's called abuse.
_______________________

Dave said:

I have dropped the slides on both EAGLES hundreds of times.

NOW I know why the lower lug feet on your Hybrid Short Sword are all beat to Helen Gone. I was afraid that you'd filed that in there on purpose!

 

[quantico]

When the range officers ask you to slam shut the slide on your 1911, or to drop the " clip " , or to lower the " hammer " on your glock ...you know you should look around for another place to shoot. Sloppy gun terms and sloppy gun handling.... show me that people still require a lot more education. :banghead:

 

[sm]

The only time I drop slides on empty chambers is to check the function on a new one , one with new internals to check for stuff...and I only do this a time or two. I have on a Range gun done so for instruction " Don't do this" SLAM! and explain why.

Informed a RO we needed an "understanding" once, so once "understood" the "clear and make safe" routine was changed. I racked twice, with mag removed , visually and phyically stuck a finger into chamber ( his pinkie) I triggered the hammer down while pointing downrange and then holstered.

Now "clear and make safe" the Keltec P-11 BUG I used was educational...

 

[Dave Sample]

Let me say a few things about EAGLE 2. I showed it to Buz Mills and Colonel Bob Young out at Gunsite and Bob said it was about the best feeling gun he had seen in a long time. It went to the Shootist Holiday a few years ago and at least two dozen people in the gun business shot it and liked it very much. My pal Bill Bidwell (Jawbones) thinks it is the nicest gun I have ever done and he shot it and stripped it down and could find nothing wrong with it. He has a standing offer to buy it from me for $ 2500.00. I have a letter around here from Cameron Hopkins who had it for a few weeks and he liked it. It was in the Shot Show a few years ago and many people in the Gun Business saw it and handled it and gave it rave reviews. It is a very tight precision machine and I do not think that Tuner knows anything about guns like this.
The way we fit a match barrel is to use a Lug Cutter and force the slide with a special tool forward as we cut the lower lugs to line up the back of the slide with the frame. It is a two way action as the barrel is locked up with another tool which has a set screw that forces it up and as high into the top lugs as far as it can go. How many of NM Barrels has the Tuner fitted and how does he do it?
The marks you see on that Colt barrel is where the slide stop pin lines up the slide to perfection. It has absolutley no play in any direction when at rest. The slide to frame fit was done with lead hammers and JB bore Compound and CLP and cold fit to perfection. The only way anything in that gun moves is the way it is suppsed to move. The barrel rests on the slide stop pin when at rest and in lock up exactly like a match barrel because of the King Bushing fit at the front, and the Ed Brown slide stop pin, and the excellent link and pin. The Caspian parts lend themselves to this kind of lock up with a stock barrel. The Officers barrel lower lugs are cut like a Commander and there is very little camming up like a government barrel. The link does that.
So, out of hundreds of folks in this business who have shot and handled this 1911, Tuner thinks that the barrel is self destructing because of two little marks that are exactly where they are supposed to be when locked up in battery.
I have to wonder about his motives for denigrating a gun like this.

 

[1911Tuner]

How many?

How many match barrels have I fit? Hmmm...Don't remember Cap'n. I usually just lay'em in the slide and beat on'em with a hammer though...

Ain't denigratin' a thing, Cap'n. Just wonderin' what made those marks.
Did you put'em there on purpose? Did the pin put'em there when the slide goes to battery? Are you usin' a Dwyer Group Grpper to force the barrel into the slide. Ya never really said...Inquirin' minds wanna know.

 

[Jammer Six]

Capn', I have a question.

In this quote, from your website:

You will have a Custom 1911 at the end of the course that we value at $3500.00 and it will be better than you can buy from anyone for any price.

you appear to say that your COPS weapons are worth $3,500.

Now, in this thread, you say

Let me say a few things about EAGLE 2. ...

...My pal Bill Bidwell (Jawbones) thinks it is the nicest gun I have ever done and he shot it and stripped it down and could find nothing wrong with it. He has a standing offer to buy it from me for $ 2500.00.

If it's the "...nicest gun I [you've] ever done...", how is it that he offered you less than the COPS guns are worth?

Are the COPS guns, which you say are worth more, not your "...nicest gun..."?

Why are guns that are nicer than COPS guns worth less on the open market?

The reason I ask is because I've been searching for a sale of a COPS gun, to see what they sell for, and I can't seem to find one.

Thanks, Capn!

 

[Dave Sample]

The price we value them at is what they would sell for compared to the high end custom guns built by the very best builders. We have had them in the Shot Show for two years running and the value is plain to see. EAGLE 2 is not a COP, it is a proto-type , one of a kind pistol I built just to see if I could make that configuration work because of conversations I had with some other great pistolsmiths. Colt made a few of this style 1911's for Lew Horton in a limited run, but they were very poorly done and they gave up on the idea very quickly as it would be tough to market them. My slide treatment is still uniique and I am the only smith that prefers checkering to grasping grooves. I like STICKY!
This gun is not for sale nor will it ever be on the market. The Patriot COP's will probably remain with their owners and be passed down to children at the end of the trail. They are not "Customized" guns, they are "True Custom Guns" with PATRIOT serial numbers and are built frrom parts from at least ten manufactures. These guns are built for hard use and fun and my students would not part with them for any price. I have the PATRIOT 17 lower end here and will use it someday for a demo gun, perhaps for the GSP, which also has a very different slide treatment that I designed for this pistol. It will never be sold, either.

 

[Dave Sample]

Tuner: The lower lugs rest on the slide stop pin in a half circle .The marks are where the pin lines it up after firing. Normal lock up in a very tight gun. The link pulls the barrel out of battery when the gun fires and and gets it down and ready to chamber the next round. You know all of this stuff. If this area was cut with a lug cutter, you would not see any marks. It is a drop in barrel and we have to work with what we have been given. You cannot push the hood down in this as you can in a sloppy factory gun because there is no play in the lock up. The pin makes those marks where it stops the slide dead in the water after firing it. This gun recoils HARD and slams into battery with a bang!

 

[Bergeron]

MoNsTeR:

Yes! Yes! Yes!

That is exactly the question that I am posing, and your opinion reflects mine.

Further, I think that a 20-26 lb sprung pistol will have a slide velocity y after stripping and feeding a round, and that y will be greater than the slide velocity z of a, say, 14 lb gun whose slide has dropped on an empty chamber. z < y, and that makes me think that I'm not going to screw things up by dropping the slide on my 1911.

But I don't know. I have 3 different recoil springs for my 1911. I can get ammo from .45 Super to softball bullseye, but I can't actually measure the slide velocities. If I could, it would be possible for me to state with greater certainty the likelihood of hurting my gun.

I'm still going to aviod doing it on any pistol, if possible.

 

[Maddock]

When I was in a similar position to Jammer Six at his plate match, I was shown the following technique by an old timer:
1. Hold the pistol in the right hand with the normal firing grip and the trigger finger OFF the trigger.
2. Place the left thumb on the hammer spur, pulling it back to full overcock.
3. Depress the slide stop with the left index finger.
4. Release hammer and pull trigger as normal.
You will learn if the bottoms of the slide rails are sharp! You can feel the inertia jump that 1911Tuner wrote of.

 

[HankL]

Is anyone here willing or able to jerk Bill Caldwell's chain and get a real contest going here?
It Would Be Educational. For the children you know.

 

[MoNsTeR]

Sear damage doesn't occur because the slide drops the hammer back onto the hooks...
It's a function of inertia as the slide hits the pistol and jerks it forward violently.

I don't buy it.

If the impact of the slide closing causes the hammer and sear to drift apart momentarily, a few things can happen:
1. The sear snaps back before the hammer, then the hammer comes back to rest. This would be identical to the case I described, where any damage potential comes from the hammer hooks impacting the sear face.
2. The hammer snaps back before the sear, but the sear returns in time to catch on the half-cock notch. If the hammer has a full-width half-cock, big sear damage. A modern hammer with a narrow half-cock just eats away at the center of the sear, which sucks but not as much. Either way, this sort of damage will never occur if the hammer never, in fact, falls to half-cock.
3. The hammer snaps back before the sear, and falls all the way. Possible full-auto situation, but no sear damage.
4. The sear returns fast enough to catch the full-cock notch, but not at the sear's full-rest position, so the hammer hooks contact the sear face differently from normal operation. This is still the same basic scenario I described, with damage being caused by the hammer hooks impacting the sear face.

So, I don't see how the inertia scenario you describe is any different from the accelerating hammer scenario I described, in terms of what kinds of mechanical interaction actually leads to damage. Particularly since for the inertial drift scenario to make sense, the hammer and sear must first be in full engagement, which means the hammer must have already fallen from overcock, meaning my scenario must take place before your scenario can play out. Furthermore, it seems to me that any inertial-overcocking of the hammer would be less than that caused by a fully open slide, so that any damage caused by the hammer falling from an inertial position would be less than that caused by falling from the fully-open overcock position.

But even if that's all wrong, the original poster's question still applies. To wit, how is this affected by forward slide velocity viz. recoil spring weight? The resistance caused by chambering a round creates some deceleration, is it enough to matter, in terms of whether the damage threshold is crossed?

 

[1911Tuner]

Realities

'Twas said:

>>I don't buy it<<

As you wish...but that is the reality. Go and study Newton's laws of motion
and think about it.

'Twas asked:

The resistance caused by chambering a round creates some deceleration, is it enough to matter, in terms of whether the damage threshold is crossed?

Yes...and the amount is substantial. Read on.

Some years back, I had an old pistol that was ready for a rebuild, so I decided to conduct an experiment with it.

I began by using cold rolled stock to make a substitute for the slidestop pin, and fire the gun in 50-round test lots to determine how much impact was absorbed during a live-feed return to battery vs an empty slam.
Two pins were made for each test.

50 rounds revealed no deforming of the soft steel...but the pins were peened badly by dropping the slide on empty in as little as 12 cycles.
By 20 cycles, the pin was all but useless.

Going further, I drilled out the center on the pins in increments of .0156 inch...1/64th...and retested. These holes were drilled undersized and reamed to exact dimension. By the time I had drilled a full 3/16ths
hole in each of the pins, the empty slam was destroying them in 2 or 3 cycles. The same pins continued to function during live-fire for up to 200 rounds..with minimal deformation. Understand that removing 3/16ths inch from the center of a .200 diameter pin would leave about .025 inch of wall thickness...a shell about 6 times the thickness of a sheet of 20-bond paper.

Assuming that your trigger group/fire control group hasn't been dinked with...the damage incurred is most severe at the lower lug feet. The slidestop crosspin is fairly well over-engineered and well-supported.
The lower lug feet aren't designed to absorb the repeated impact stress of a 16-ounce slide propelled by a 16-pound coil spring.

There's also the matter of the slidestop pin holes in the frame. Ever seen a pistol with the holes elongated toward the front? I have...and in guns that weren't all that old. Guess what causes that. Yep...Impact.

Take two hammers and slap the faces together with the same force
about 30 or 40 times and you will soon start to see the results of steel to steel impact...and the barrel lug is much softer than the hammer heads.

Cheers!

 

[Striker]

Glock Manual of Arms

All,

Interesting....let me add abit of fuel for Glock users

After a situation with attempting to utilize the "slide lock" on the Glock MDL 36 to release the slide (see my thread just posted). Here is what I was told by the Glock techies when I inquired.

1. No where in any company literature is there any reference to a slide release.

2. The slide lock is just that a device which acts in conjunction with the mag follower or thru manual minipulation to lock the slide to the rear

3. Glock does not advocate the use of the slide lock to release the slide under any circumstances, and to do so may result in damage to the slide lock or slide lock spring.

Before you flog me, let me stress that this is what I was told by Glock personnel. I would also stress that the particular Glock in question was a model 36. (I have been known to drop the slide via depression of the slide lock on 19/23/27/30 platforms!!!)

Bottom line is that in some leagues and on some ranges following the rule to drop the slide using the slide lock (assuming I could with the M36) would put me in the position of violating the Glock "approved manual of arms"

 

[Bergeron]

1911Tuner,

Cool! Thanks for posting that. One piece of experimental data is worth a hundred posts on why something should or should not work. That's what I was wondering, and I appreciate your response.

 

[Topgun]

I got beat up real bad on this subject once before.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=54119&highlight=trigger

I still do it that way. Trigger back when releasing slide. Loaded or unloaded. Just like the pistol operates every time you fire it and as it was designed to be.

NOT for the careless. NOT for those with "wavemuzzleitis." NOT for anyone unfamiliar with 1911.

NOT for MOST shooters. It is NOT instinctive and it FEELS wrong, but the gun does exactly that every time it fires. Ole John Browning wanted it that way.

And it is the ONLY way to do it if you are using a trigger-worked LIGHT trigger.

Flame away again. I got asbestos all wrapped around me.

 

[1911Tuner]

To Flame, or not to Flame

Howfy Top Gun,

Your statement:

And it is the ONLY way to do it if you are using a trigger-worked LIGHT trigger.

....was once very true. It was the only way because the smiths used the components that were available in the day. Nowadays, we have lightened hammers and sears...and aluminum and plastic triggers that have been skeletonized to make them even lighter and less affected by Newton's
pesky law that states: "Objects in motion tend to remain in motion."
Thus permitting the trigger wizards to bring the trigger pulls into the realm
once reserved for bolt-action rifles and single-shot target pistols.

It's all about I-N-E-R-T-I-A, and all it takes to understand it is...understanding. Neat, huh?

And here all this time ya'll thought that them lightened parts was only to make'em move faster to fire the gun.

 

[TonyB]

I shoot IDPA with a Glock17..I never allow the slide to slam forward.(except on a slide lock reload).I always ease it forward on the "slide forward "command.No RO has ever complained...even at matches...maybe I just got lucky...I shoot with some poeple who let it fly ,but it always makes me cringe.....