Dropping the slide on an empty chamber

[BCRider]

Folks with a history of metal working will take note that different guns will sound differently when the slide is dropped with an empty chamber.

My 1911's make a disturbingly "glass like" single hit sound such as you get when hitting two hammer heads together. My other semis tend to have a lot of other things going on which creates more of a train of smaller and softer sounds resulting in a more cushioned slide travel. If you listen to the differences closely it becomes pretty obvious.

As for things that can break? How many of you have ever tried to clear a metal file by hitting it against the bench only to have it make a ringing snap and see a piece of it fly away? Yet files are finely tuned for the job that they are made for.

There's very little in a good handgun which is there for no reason. And the rest that is still there is designed to work with ammo being present in the cycle of operation. We remove that when we drop a slide on an empty chamber. Yes, the slide does still move fast. But there's a big difference between a sudden impact and even the softening that occurs from stripping and chambering a fresh round.

The shock absorbers on your car, truck or motorcycle move fast as well so they can deal with the next bump. Fast enough that you can simply remove them? Try it and you'll suddenly realize that even a little bit of shock damping or motion damping that happens fast as a wheel bump or as fast as a closing slide is still very noticeable.

Those of us with S&W revolvers see another example of this. It's well known that if we flick the cylinder closed smartly instead of closing it by hand that the inevitable result will be a bent crane and ejector tube and rod. Yet the guns are resisting FAR greater loads when being fired. The difference? The metal parts and design is made to resist the recoil loads in one direction. They are not designed for or intended to resist loads from the other directions. Yet no one says that those guns are poorly designed.

 

[Zach S]

BCRider, I've worked in steel for most of my adult life. Being a high-thumb 1911 shooter, Glocks and Sigs don't slide-lock reliably for me... I can tell when they're empty by the sound of the slide, while wearing ear protection.

I totally agree. That is one reason that I don't hand over any of my guns (cleared and checked already), with the slide locked back. If my gun is being shown in a group, I usually request that nobody drop the slide lock. If someone does that after I make my request, I usually will ask for the gun back.

Agreed.

And if I have to ask for my gun back, I'm not very nice about it. IMO that's like someone lighting up after I ask them not to smoke in my house.

What I find Ironic is they normally ask before they dry-fire it.

Which guns did he test?

Well, it was 1911Tuner... Post number 27 in this thread.

A cut and paste that I posted on another forum:
************************************

'Twas asked:

The resistance caused by chambering a round creates some deceleration, is it enough to matter, in terms of whether the damage threshold is crossed?
________________________

Yes...and the amount is substantial. Read on.

Some years back, I had an old pistol that was ready for a rebuild, so I decided to conduct an experiment with it.

I began by using cold rolled stock to make a substitute for the slidestop pin, and fire the gun in 50-round test lots to determine how much impact was absorbed during a live-feed return to battery vs an empty slam.
Two pins were made for each test.

50 rounds revealed no deforming of the soft steel...but the pins were peened badly by dropping the slide on empty in as little as 12 cycles.
By 20 cycles, the pin was all but useless.

Going further, I drilled out the center on the pins in increments of .0156 inch...1/64th...and retesting. These holes were drilled undersized and reamed to exact dimension. By the time I had drilled a full 3/16ths
hole in each of the pins, the empty slam was destroying them in 2 or 3 cycles. The same pins continued to function during live-fire for up to 200 rounds..with minimal deformation. Understand that removing 3/16ths inch from the center of a .200 diameter pin would leave about .025 inch of wall thickness...a shell about 6 times the thickness of a sheet of 20-bond paper.

Assuming that your trigger group/fire control group hasn't been dinked with...the damage incurred is most severe at the lower lug feet. The slidestop crosspin is fairly well over-engineered and well-supported.
The lower lug feet aren't designed to absorb the repeated impact stress of a 16-ounce slide propelled by a 16-pound coil spring.

There's also the matter of the slidestop pin holes in the frame. Ever seen a pistol with the holes elongated toward the front? I have...and in guns that weren't all that old. Guess what causes that. Yep...Impact.

Take two hammers and slap the faces together with the same force
about 30 or 40 times and you will soon start to see the results of steel to steel impact...and the barrel lug is much softer than the hammer heads.

 

[Blue Brick]

Won’t hurt my Ruger or my HP.

 

[Drail]

Why not?

 

[Tirod]

The procedure checking off shift when I was deployed was to strip the magazine, clear the chamber, then punch the slide lock button letting it slam forward, point the weapon into the sand barrel and pull the trigger.

Once turned into the armorer, he locked open the slide, checked the chamber, pushed the slide lock letting it slam forward, and pulled the trigger. Because of the duty cycle it happened twice each duty day I worked, three on two off, for 6 months, and another unit took over. That's about four times daily, an average of 5 days a week per month, about 1,000 times a year?

The M9 has a service life of about 25 years, that's 25,000 times. If your gun can't handle that, don't buy junk.

Collectors only value firearms that were never fired or used. Shooters only value firearms they shoot and use. Which are you?

 

[silicosys4]

The procedure checking off shift when I was deployed was to strip the magazine, clear the chamber, then punch the slide lock button letting it slam forward, point the weapon into the sand barrel and pull the trigger.

Once turned into the armorer, he locked open the slide, checked the chamber, pushed the slide lock letting it slam forward, and pulled the trigger. Because of the duty cycle it happened twice each duty day I worked, three on two off, for 6 months, and another unit took over. That's about four times daily, an average of 5 days a week per month, about 1,000 times a year?

The M9 has a service life of about 25 years, that's 25,000 times. If your gun can't handle that, don't buy junk.

Collectors only value firearms that were never fired or used. Shooters only value firearms they shoot and use. Which are you?

Yet most people I have heard from who have been issued one of those m9's says they are all in pretty sad shape, and heavily worn. I have Yet to have heard a grunt tell about their nice, tight, new M9. The last thing I want is to wear my guns like that.

Drop the slide on an empty chamber with my guns is the same as slamming my car door as hard as you can. The first time gets a warning and explanation. The second time proves you aren't respectful or intelligent enough to be handling my firearms

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I keep trying to think of a reason a person would drop a slide on an empty chamber........

Nothing comes to mind.

 

[Ed Ames]

I don't like doing it for basically the same reason I had to condition myself not to ride the slide down when loading: Banging precision metal around for no reason just seems wrong.

That said, if a "tuner" has pushed things to the point where dropping the slide can cause harm, and hasn't installed some sort of buffer (a teflon, urathane, or similar pad, or even a beryllium copper washer at the point of impact), that sounds pretty half-"baked" to me. It would cost $0.25 to simply solve that problem, and not doing so on a $2000+ gun...well, it raises big questions (to be nice).

 

[Oldman1151]

I don't like doing it for basically the same reason I had to condition myself not to ride the slide down when loading: Banging precision metal around for no reason just seems wrong.

That said, if a "tuner" has pushed things to the point where dropping the slide can cause harm, and hasn't installed some sort of buffer (a teflon, urathane, or similar pad, or even a beryllium copper washer at the point of impact), that sounds pretty half-"baked" to me. It would cost $0.25 to simply solve that problem, and not doing so on a $2000+ gun...well, it raises big questions (to be nice).

A "beryllium copper"washer? Those are not that common. Where would find one?

 

[Drail]

Where do you plan on putting a beryllium washer? The wear and tear we're talking about is from when the slide goes forward and crashes the barrel/slide lugs together.

 

[Ed Ames]

A "beryllium copper"washer? Those are not that common. Where would find one?

I can make one, and I'm not even a gunsmith. Beryllium copper is commonly used to make springs.

Where do you plan on putting a beryllium washer? The wear and tear we're talking about is from when the slide goes forward and crashes the barrel/slide lugs together.

Hmmm...let me grab a 1911 and have a look....OK, looks like you have three obvious choices for buffer location: bushing, link, or breach. Of course with a modification to slide and frame you could add a buffer location...not unreasonable for a high dollar gun.

 

[orionengnr]

I don't claim to be an expert, but...

I value the opinion of those whom I deem to be experts.

IMHO, 1911Tuner and Drail both fall into that category.

So...beat and bang your gun any way you choose. But, much like "snapping" the cylinder open or closed on a revolver, I consider this behavior idiotic and abusive...do it on your guns, and I'll shake my head and mutter.

Do it on one of my guns...you and I may not be on speaking terms afterwards. I will certainly never view you in the same light again.

 

[Oldman1151]

I can make one, and I'm not even a gunsmith. Beryllium copper is commonly used to make spring.

I can make one too but I was surprised beryllium copper was even mentioned. I worked at a beryllium copper processing plant for 28 years. I did not realize it was that available to be mentioned here. It is good stuff and easy to machine, just have to know how to process safely.

 

[HKGuns]

Regardless of whether or not it does any harm it screams newbie and is completely unnecessary.

 

[Ed Ames]

... just have to know how to process safely.

Very true. Definitely a material you want to read the MSDS on before you start filing. Nifty stuff though.

Regardless of whether or not it does any harm it screams newbie and is completely unnecessary.

I agree...but I also think it happens. Sometimes the slide doesn't lock back on an empty magazine. Sometimes people forget the magazine they just inserted was empty. Sometimes you aren't the one handling your gun.

It is like dry firing...you don't need to design a gun to handle 1,000,000 dry fires without snap caps, but if it can't handle a few hundred you had better make it easy/cheap to repair.

 

[Zach S]

It does happen. Its the habit you want to avoid IMO.

 

[ny32182]

Regardless of whether or not it does any harm it screams newbie and is completely unnecessary.

Actually the people I know that shoot north of 10, 20, 50k rounds a year do far more slide dropping than anyone else I've ever seen.

 

[Tirod]

After 25 years the 1911's got rebuilt, and after WWII they got rebuilt again, and when the M9 came in service it was because it would be cheaper than rebuilding them again.

It's not like slamming a car door as hard as you can. It's like just shutting the door, and after twenty five years of even the most meticulous care in shutting the door, the weatherstrip will still deteriorate, the hinge bushings will wear, and the pins and latch need replacement.

You can baby them, but in the long run they were meant to be used and consumed. There's a lot more people running +Plus ammo and loading hot rounds that abuse an action than dropping the slide causes. It is neither idiotic or deliberately disrespectful - it's just using a firearm the way it was meant to be used, as designed and often spelled out in the owner's manual.

From the SIG P938 manual:

4. Pull the slide back to the rear and lock open with the slide stop.
5. Visually and manually check the chamber to ensure the pistol is completely
free of ammunition.
6. Depress the slide stop, causing the slide to close.

We likely could trade instructions on which ones allow it and which might not, it's not in my experience with handguns to baby them when they don't need to be. I was trained as a user, not collector, I'm not too worried about "damage" to a firearm when repetitive use requires inspection and maintenance that would discover a problem anyway.

As for the M9's I was issued, I qualified on the one I had, it wasn't new, but any gun that could be shot Expert after being in service over ten years thru hundreds of users is the norm with military firearms. A little anodizing wear here or parkerizing lost there is no different than the parking lot dings and scratches on a used car - no, you don't see those on a trailer queen. A daily driver, well, in the real world of collecting, it's called "patina" and it's actually valued more highly than a refinish.

Surf the net and see what the first Shelby Cobra looks like today - the leather seats are ripped, it's got dings, three coats of paint from the first marketing blitz, and the chrome isn't show quality. It's valued more highly than any other none the less, and not because it's show car beeyoutiful.

Slide stops and bolt releases are there for a reason, if your design engineer writes in the owner's manual you can use it, it's still your choice. I don't like dealing with partial feeds or stoppages due to operator error, so, I use them.

Drop the slide stop and drop the safety, pull the trigger. What's next, saying we should never use ammo in a gun because it might cause wear and tear? There is a valid and contrary opinion on the subject, not everything people are told word of mouth is accurate. Read YOUR owner's manual and decide for yourself.

 

[silicosys4]

Copied from the Springfield Armory 1911A1 Manual.


If slide is already in “locked back” position:
1. Point gun in safe direction.
2. Press magazine release button to
remove magazine.
3. From top and rear, carefully inspect
chamber to make sure it is empty.
4. Hold slide, disengage slide stop,
ease slide forward.
Notice: The slide of a 1911-A1 pistol should never
be released on an empty chamber; especially one
which has had an action job. Releasing the slide on
an empty chamber causes damage to the breech
face on the barrel and undue stress on all action
parts, including the hammer and the sear. This will
ruin the action job performed on your pistol.
5. Carefully lower hammer as described in the
HAMMER LOWERING section. (Page 22)
Pistol is not empty or unloaded until the chamber is empty and the magazine removed.

SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
GENESEO IL USA
MM123456

Seems like a bad habit to get into if you own a 1911, and serves no purpose. I own multiple 1911 so its a habit I won't allow around my guns.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Notice: The slide of a 1911-A1 pistol should never
be released on an empty chamber

This thread was about the Beretta M9/92FS

and this is from their manual

Unloading the pistol and cartridge chamber...
WHEN SURE THE CHAMBER IS EMPTY AND THE CARTRIDGE HAS BEEN
EJECTED, quickly release the slide...

http://stevespages.com/pdf/beretta_92.pdf

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, but all guns are exactly the same, so we can assume that anything true about one is true about every other one.

"Anything that is true aboutE. coli must be true of elephants, except more so." -- Jacques Monod

 

[silicosys4]

Yes, but all guns are exactly the same, so we can assume that anything true about one is true about every other one.

"Anything that is true aboutE. coli must be true of elephants, except more so." -- Jacques Monod

Well, if there is a habit that is damaging to some of my guns, and beneficial to none, while also serving no purpose, I will avoid doing that with ALL of my guns.

 

[mastergunner]

Guess all those folks who believe dropping a slide on an empty chamber should never again buy a military surplus semi or fully auto weapon due to all of them being damaged. Most all military weapons inspections require this as part of the inspection process from the M2 .50 down to the old 1911. But as for me I have never observed this damaging any of my weapons in my 22 years of military service.

 

[Zach S]

Repeatedly dropping the slide on an empty chamber will not damage some firearms.

Repeatedly dropping the slide on an empty chamber will damage some others.

At one point, we had two conflicting Colt manuals, and one compromise. One mentioned dropping the slide as part of a function check. Another (mine, I think), mentioned it for a function check, however warned that in excess, it would damage the pistol and/or cause acellerated wear. The third more or less said "don't."

If it doesn't effect some, and could cause damge to others, I think its best to just avoid it altogether to keep from developing a habit.

As an example, with a different machine, I got in the habit of shifting my 92 Honda without using the clutch, due to a back injury. I stayed in the habit after my back (somewhat) healed. And it was an easy habit to break in the 84 Ranger I bought to replace the Honda, because simply taking it out of gear results in noises I havent heard since teaching my brother to drive...

 

[Ditchtiger]

Similar question or thought but on slide locks.
When depressing the slide lock under pressure will the bearing surfaces of the slide lock and slide wear badly?
Should we pull the slide back and let it go instead?