Someone please tell me about the Thomspon Center Hawken, and historical question

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I got my first real "traditional" frontstuffer (non-inline) this weekend at the gun show. It's a .45 Cal T/C Hawken sidelock (percussion cap gun), with brass accents (butt plate, side plate, endcap at front of forearm), and the owner engraved the stock. There was a little light rust in the barrel, but no apparent pitting.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The TC Hawken is a very stylized interpretation of the original Hawkens rifle. The lock dispenses with the traditional "V" spring and uses a modern coil spring in its place. The sights are more advanced than the original but who's going to complain? There's a couple of books, The Hawken Rifle: The Mountain Man's Choice, by John Baird, that you may be able to find through inter-library loan. He's also written a sequel "Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode" that has been around for a while.

While the TC Hawken is not a true recreation of the original Hawken, no commerically manufactured gun is (including TC's great competitor, the Lyman Great Plains rifle). Still, this does not detract a bit from the joy and fun of shooting.

Congratulations on your acquisition. May it bring you years of pleasure. A long time ago, I bought one for my uncle as a Xmas gift and he loves it.

 

[Dienekes]

T-C started making them back around 1972 or so. They are NOT a replica of anything other than a generic plains/target rifle, but probably the best off the shelf muzzleloader of the last 35 years. I had a percussion in .50 and shot it a LOT in my black powder phase. Very well made, rugged, and reliable as the day is long. Sold it for what was an allegedly "better" rifle after five or six years, and wish I had it back. Had a lot of good times with that gun.

I occasionally think about getting another one--a flinter in .54--but the herd is already too big and I am spread too thin now.

They're keepers.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have a .50 T/C Hawken and think T/C missed named it. The difference that are obvious are the real Hawken was two wedges, no nose cap and iron furniture. Major difference in the cheek rest also. Still a fine smoke pole no matter what name they hung on it.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Thanks very much.

My historical question was/is: When did the transition from flintlocks to caplocks occur? I.e. When was the percussion cap invented?

 

[BigG]

The transition to percussion happened in 1840s and later and the Colt's revolving pistol was one of the original users that popularized percussion. The armies adopted percussion like 1845 and moved to fixed ammunition about 1865 so the percussion era as a front loading deal was pretty short. Flintlock was a couple hundred years long and then fixed ammo has been long since post 1865 but percussion only lasted a few years.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

OK, thanks again. What exactly is a classic Hawken type? Which modern replica best reproduces the classic Hawken - any links? Also, I got this rifle for $185 - did I do alright?

 

[2RCO]

For $185 I'd say you did fine if it's in good shape paid close to that for one 15 years ago.

 

[Pulp]

I've had one since the mid-70's in
.50 caliber. I've always liked it, and it's always fired, 'ceptin' the time I reversed the loading order.

Mine is very accurate with round balls or the T/C Maxi Ball, but won't shoot worth a flip with anything else.

 

[mykeal]

Which modern replica best reproduces the classic Hawken

Well, it's a matter of opinion, and like all such matters subject to some debate, but...

There is no modern replica that reproduces the original Hawken mountain rifle's architecture and peculiar, unique characteristics. There are even very few custom rifles that meet that very lofty standard.

In my personal opinion, subject to disagreement, of course, the closest mass produced gun currently being marketed is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. Lyman had the good sense to NOT name their design, which is a derivative of and close to the Thompson Center Hawken, after the original since it is not a replica. The other companies which use the name market guns that are even further from the Hawken design.

By the way, I own two examples of both the Lyman GPR and T/C Hawken, and enjoy shooting both. They are different guns with different characteristics but both excellent firearms. I think the Misters Hawken would not be nearly as offended as many of today's purists.

As for a link to original Hawken information, try The Hawken Shop

 

[Ratdog68]

I've had one since the mid-70's in
.50 caliber. I've always liked it, and it's always fired, 'ceptin' the time I reversed the loading order.

Hmmmm....? How does a feller plunge the round ball into the nipple? I get how the cap gets mooshed into the muzzle. I hope ya tamped it REALLY lightly while it was down there with the powder.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hmmm, this one looks a lot like the ones at the Hawken shop link there...

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The transition to percussion happened in 1840s and later and the Colt's revolving pistol was one of the original users that popularized percussion. The armies adopted percussion like 1845 and moved to fixed ammunition about 1865 so the percussion era as a front loading deal was pretty short. Flintlock was a couple hundred years long and then fixed ammo has been long since post 1865 but percussion only lasted a few years.

That's an interesting stat, that in the grand scheme of things, percussion cap guns were a little more than a blip on the history radar screen, and yet they are quite popular among the "traditional" crowd. I really really don't want to hear anyone whine about inlines unless it's coming from a flintlock guy. If you're a percussion cap guy, I don't wanna hear it. If you use a matchlock or flintlock however, I will consider you the real deal and will gladly listen to your rant about inlines!

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

For $325, these guys will do a complete custom rebuild of your Lyman, Hawken, or Renegade rifles - sounds interesting:

http://www.restorationfirearms.com/OnlineCatalog.html

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Unfortunately, the owner of this business has died and his wife has left the page up as a memorial to him. It is really a shame, because it looked like he remade the rifles into something that a person would be proud to own at what I believe to be a very reasonable price from what I see. It looks like a loss to the muzzleloading community and I am sure that if his guns look as good in person as the pictures do, I would think the prices of his guns kept in good condition have to be on the rise.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Any decent blackpowder rifle gunsmith can do the work that restorationfirearms did. I'm not knocking the guy but I think he found a niche market for himself. May he RIP.

 

[mykeal]

in the grand scheme of things, percussion cap guns were a little more than a blip on the history radar screen

I don't think that's a correct interpretation. The 'transition' was a long one, starting in about 1807; Joshua Shaw's metallic cap was invented in 1814 and patented in 1822; Francois Prelat invented one in 1818; the British Army adopted percussion caps in 1842; the metallic cartridge was invented in the 1850's, leading to widespread use of the breech loading metallic cartridge in the late post war 1860's. Flintlocks and percussion lock rifles and ball & cap pistols were still in common use amongst rural working people for some time after that. Hardly just a blip.

 

[44-henry]

The best production reproduction of the Hawken I have seen are the ones by Uberti, but they are still fairly expensive. For the same money as a new Uberti you can get a pretty decent custom Hawken second hand from places like Track of the Wolf. Don Stith offers some excellent hawken kits and these are generally considered to be some of the best kits out there.

 

[A. Walker]

Here's a comparison of an original Hawken (top) with a Lyman Great Plains Rifle (bottom). The differences are fairly subtle.

I have a GPR and enjoy it very much, and the price won't give you a heart attack like one from a specialty shop will.

IMHO percussion caps never went away, they just moved fron the nipple to the back of the enclosed cartridge and the name was changed from "cap" to "primer". Still the same concept, just a different application.

Al

 

[Mountain Jim]

i took my Great palins rifle out and shot it several times with my uncle and it shot just great. one thing i noticed about the picture is that the rear site on the Hawken is farther back then on my rifle, and my uncle says that that probly makes it a little more accurate then my rifle. is their a way i could move the site back on my rifle to make it a little more like the Hawken?

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Ha, ha, "sextuple-tap"....


Good info, all. I also just bought here on THR from a guy, another Hawken, this one a Traditions/left-hand/.50 cal.

Question (dumb one): What are you supposed to put inside the round hole in the stock, covered by the spring hinge brass plate? Percussion caps? Cleaning patches? Or just whatever you feel like?

 

[chad1043]

Ha ha... watch that post button, it's tricky...

 

[mykeal]

Here's a comparison of an original Hawken (top) with a Lyman Great Plains Rifle (bottom). The differences are fairly subtle.

Well, as they say, it's in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think the differences are quite striking; the GPR does resemble the Hawken - it bears many similar characteristics - but I see some very significant differences as well. Look carefully at the wrist area, the comb, the bottom of the buttstock and to some extent the forestock and especially the lock and lock area.

That's not a criticism; I own, shoot and thoroughly enjoy two GPR's; they're excellent guns. But they are not Hawken replicas, nor does Lyman claim they are. They are a fine gun unto themselves.

is their a way i could move the site back on my rifle to make it a little more like the Hawken?

Yes, you can cut a new dovetail further back on the barrel and simply move the sight back to that dovetail. It can be done with hand tools (get special dovetail cutting files) with little special skill or experience required. Any decent gunsmith can also do it, probably for less than $50.

But why? The gun is not a Hawken replica, and moving the sight back, while it's a little more like the Hawken, is kind of like putting a Mercedes hood ornament on a BMW - it's still not a Mercedes.

Your uncle is right that it would be a bit more accurate, due to the increased sight radius, but unless you're a very good shot you won't be able to take advantage of the difference, and it does make target acquisition a bit more difficult.

I would not go to the trouble.

 

[Macmac]

The Colt Patterson I believe entered the scene in 1837 as a cap lock six shooter, one of the first that functioned.

I am getting the idea you might want to join up with Buck Skinners.

If so you need rear fixed buckhorn sights to play their games..

Modern rear adjustable sites are tabboo at such events. And on a smooth bore there will be no rear sites at all.

If you should buy a smooth rifle you will shoot it against rifled rifles at these events.

No vintage guns and clones thereof have any coil springs in locks.

I shoot only flinters in long guns, and my only cap locks are six shooters for obvious reasons.

If you really are inclined to attend Voo and other events related to history i would avise getting a gun at one of the events.

We don't see many Lyman and even less TC guns at these events. The re-sale value of these at any even is grim. This can make trading up difficult at events.

In 28+ years of going to events i have seen a great deal of people buy the wrong gun for the time line they want to be part of, and they spend more time and money getting things they way they need to.

I really can't tell if this is in yer head or not, but if it is take this advice for what it is..

 

[Mountain Jim]

dumb post kept telling me that my message was not getting thru and to try again which is why the many posts. sorry. i was just wondering about the site which is why i asked. Now i know. Thanks Mykeal.