Someone please tell me about the Thomspon Center Hawken, and historical question

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Well, as they say, it's in the eye of the beholder

As they say, one person's significant is another person's subtle. I imagine that the differences among the original Hawkens, especially after Gemmer took over the business, were enough to encompass nearly all of the subtle or significant differences between the two rifles. But you are quite right that Lyman never claimed that the GPR was a reproduction of any particular gun. As a representation of a style of rifle, I think that the GPR is an excellent example, especially for the price. I certainly enjoy mine, and it's just close enough to the real thing that I'm extremely happy with it.

Question (dumb one): What are you supposed to put inside the round hole in the stock, covered by the spring hinge brass plate? Percussion caps? Cleaning patches? Or just whatever you feel like?

This is known as a Patch Box. You would keep your spare patches, tallow for lube, percussion caps, spare balls, etc. in there. Or your lunch, if that turns you on...
 
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A. Walker said:
I think that the GPR is an excellent example, especially for the price. I certainly enjoy mine, and it's just close enough to the real thing that I'm extremely happy with it.

On that point, sir, we are in violent agreement.
 
You asked why the percussion lock is popular with modern shooters - it doesn't take much effort whereas a flintlock shooter must be a specialist and learn how to make that bugger work in all conditions. When you can make that go off 99 times out of a hundred and shoot accurately, those are braggin rights, at least to yourself because you have overcome a lot of problems getting that knowledge and performance.
 
T/C Hawken memories

In my gun closet stands a well-used gun case with a very special rifle inside it. In 1976 my father built himself a T/C hawken for a kit. I was 16 at the time and instead of spending time running around with my loopy friends I sat by my dad's side and watched him build his rifle. I thought it was the coolest thing ever...that is until my birthday that year. When I opened the long cardboard box my jaw dropped. There was my very own Hawken kit! You could not drag me away from the workbench in our furnace room. I spent hours working the fairly rough barrel down by draw filing and sanding and days working the stock and brass into what resembled a hawken. Dad is gone now and so is his rifle. he traded it years ago for a varmit rifle. I kept mine and it started my black powder addiction that continues to this day...T/C Hawken.....BEST DAMN RIFLE I EVER HAD!
 
messerist, your a fortunate man to have those memories. I've been very satisfied with my T/C kit. I'm not concerned at all about it not looking like a Hawken. I think T/C should have used another name, like plains Rifle.
You could have a custom, hand made, exact copy of a original Hawken. But it's still a reproduction.
 
This is mine hawken (not really this, the picture came from a web catalogue)
hawkenacero.jpg

Do you think is correct enought like replica?
It's made by Pedersoli
ciao
Rusty
 
That's a beauty!

Rusty that's a beauty! Sure is original enough for me! How does she shoot?

About authenticity..... I think its important to remember that Hawken was just one of the Plains style makers of the day. What about Leman, Dimick and Gemmer? Their rifles definitely had a similar appearance. It's also important to remember that makers like Hawken made many models, full-stock, half-stock, flint, percussion, and on and on. So when someone makes a repro Hawken there is a lot of latitude for style. Track of the Wolf has a nice selection of different models from originals. My personal favorite was the full stock flinter made in the early Hawken years. Not what you see in the movies, but very cool none the less.

One last thought concerning the rise and fall of percussion guns. Living in the South, I think it's good to remember that percussion "hog rifles" were in use and being made by makers such as Hacker Martin until well into the 1940's and 50's.

Good rifles never die.... they just slowly rust away (or not if properly cared for!):D

Happy shooting
 
Shoot well, with a .535 round ball a .10 patch and 55 grains of FFFg for target, 100 grains FFg for fun!
The only problem is the price, cost twice than an investarms!
Here in Italy circa 1000 euro, around 1200 USd, buti win it at a shooting match, in a lottery!!! A lucky moment, i already had one, but trade the old one for a 1911A1 clone with a friend!
ciao
Rusty
 
Rusty -

"Correct enough" for who? There are people who would get quite upset at the suggestion the Pedersoli Hawken even resembled a J&S Hawken. And there are many more people who don't really care - they just like the looks of the rifle.

The simple, one word answer is, "No." A more complicated answer would complain about the size and location of the rear sight, the shape of the comb and the cheek piece, the thickness of the wrist and other (sometimes very slight, sometimes imagined) architectural differences.

And in the end, if you like the rifle, who cares what they think? If it's important, buy a Don Stith kit and have it built by one of the several expert builders who know the Hawken design inside and out. If it's not, buy the one you like, and don't ask the question.
 
Rusty, That gun would meet the requirement for Rendezvo in the USA, for a fixed rear site. I am not personally familar with the internals, so have no idea if the lock runs on coil spings. If it does use coil springs then they are wrong. if it uses wood from Euro it is wrong.

Close enough, depends on who you are asking, but that gun would work at Voo.

At voo new guys show up with TC, and Lyman guns all the time. What they find is they must changed the rear site to compete in shooting games if they want to score for prizes. pretty much you can use a gun with an adjustable rear site at smaller voo's for new guys to get started, but still their scores don't count for prizes.

With that said no factory made gun is right, and a lot of custom guns are not perfectly correct either. Many guns use cast steel v springs, which isn't correct, but they are out there just the same.

Most locks from Siler. aka Jim Chambers , and L&R use cast v springs, so getting each part to be correct is a hard task to do.

There was no such thing as casting of springs then, and no such thing as investment casting for sears, hammers, cocks and top jaws, and etc etc..

In the USA the cut off time for at 'Voo' is 1840.

As I understand it Colt with the Colt Patterson came out in 1837, to use caps, and so there must have been caps first. i don't know when caps first came out and what they were for, but Colt could not have worked with Patterson to create a gun such as this with out caps.

What was in the industrial 'East', took time to make it to the West.. I can't know if in less than 3 years cap locks took over as the primary ignition in the Rockies, but I sure would doubt it.

American Trappers tend to be conservitive people even now, and so I don't think back then any of the same would jump on the newest and latest thing, when their flinters did the job and did it well.

I started in with BP in the early 70's not knowing any other shooter, and worked backwards. By the early 80's I had worked backwards enough to mess about in flinters. By 84 I had sold all my single shot cap lock rifles for flinters.

In 2009 I have no interest in cap locks at all, unless they are 6 shooters.

My ideas on Hawkens is if I had one one it would be in flint with v springs in American walnut, or maple in a full stock, and have iron furniture. The bore would be 54 to 58 cal and rifled. The ft site would sit low on the bore and the rear site would match in a dovetail, farther up the barrel that it should be, to suit my aging eyes.

It is probable that only a very few real Hawkens ever saw the Rockies in any form pre 1840, and their reputation was created after 1840.

It is more likely, while I have no proof it that the Harpers Ferry Rifle 1803, was a more common rifle AFTER Lewis and Clark had returned from the west.

I have read this rifle wasn't on much more than paper at the time L&C left, and so it isn't likely they had the 1803 HFR at all.
 
OK, thanks again. What exactly is a classic Hawken type? Which modern replica best reproduces the classic Hawken - any links? Also, I got this rifle for $185 - did I do alright?

look at Pedersoli. they have 2 or 3 versions of the Hawken. they are pretty expensive, but Pedersoli makes great guns, they are worth every penny.

Lyman and traditions also make hawkens, but if you hold a TC hawken and then you hold a lyman or traditions, you will feel the difference and see why the TC is more expensive. I dont know about lyman and tradition rifles made 20 years ago, but the ones made today seem pretty cheap.

also, you can check out the Dixie gun works hawken, that one looks just like the TC, but its about $200 cheaper.

and cabelas sells a few versions of the Hawkens, a shorter sporterized, a regular length sporterized and the traditional hawken.

again, i would only get the Pedersoli, TC, or maybe the Dixie Gunworks traditional hawken.
 
Macmac, the rifle came in two different kind of wood, the basic is european walnut, the version in the pic posted above is american maple, so say Pedersoli, the spring is V shape i don't know if it's cast or forged, but for production i think it's cast type, the lock is tight with a single screw, caliber is .54 with slow twist for patch ball the front sight look like a silver alloy rear sight is a standard Pedersoli ramp set sight!
I have seen before an old Uberti Hawken and a Investerm, Uberti is just a little bit smaller than Pedersoli, but very close similar, investarm have nothing to do with hawken shape!
ciao
Rusty
 
Dr. Tad, if that rusty bbl bothers you, Green Mountain makes beautiful replacement drop in bbls for your T/CH. I bought one years ago for my .54 Renegade. Bought a fast twist .50 to shoot sabot loads with a scope. Push out the wedge and make it what you want. I also have a .50 PA Hunter flinter that I bought a GM .36 cal bbl for. Now that is a hoot to shoot!
 
Rusty, another design flaw modern makers don't deal with is the barrels on most real Hawkins rifles were tapered from the breech to the muzzel. You can't really fix that flaw and use the same stock, unfortunatly, but it really shouldn't matter.

Nearly no one can afford an exact copy of the real thing in Hawkin, or much of anything else as it is just cost prohibitive.

My Nor' West Gun isn't pure correct, nor in my Brown Bess, nor my Kentucky long rifle.

Each one has design flaws, cast v springs and the like. These are flintlocks. Jim Chambers took over the Siler Lock Co., and has one of the best flintlocks there is. These even have the flash pan separate from the lock plate, which is what most flintlock plates were like once.

My bess has a cast lock plate and there is a line cast into the plate which makes it appear as the pan is another part, but the plate and pan are all one piece of metal just the same.

The L&R lock is the same way, and someone took a lot of time and trouble to mimic the pan line to show it is 2 pieces, but it isn't.

On the other hand the worst lock I have is on the Trade Gun and it has a pan that comes off the lock plate. This is a very good lock and nearly correct, and the term worst is due to the fact Trade Guns were made to be cheaper. It hasn't little nice things like a 'fly' and or fancy internals like the L&R and Siler locks do.

Of couse neither does the Bess, because it was military, but the Bess is built much more rugged than the trade gun lock is.

All of these locks are better than some others for modern replica guns so far as i am concerned.

many locks are looked at and inspected lightly, and then some engineer designs a lock that has a look, but the engineer doesn't know why, and therfore what he is doing, and isn't himself familar with what makes a flint lock a good flint lock.

So we all share these problems about being 'correct'.

What custom makes sometimes do, is buy parts and then alter the parts heavily, and then can mke the parts closer to correct, sometimes nearly perfectly correct, untill it comes to the wood, where it was grown and the metal.

A very few custom makers will make their own steel from scratch, but we are talking about a very few people who can afford a lot of work most people never see or appreciate.

No guns back then were made of recycled chevy and toyota which I might guess we all do now on way or another. No one like Green Mountain is going to tell anyone where they buy their steel either.

Modern building, usually means too much wood still on the finished product. Almost ALL real guns I have ever seen had very little wood remaining forward of the wrist.

Most of these had less than 1/8th inch along the barrel, and nothing like the common 1/4"/ 6mm we are accustomed to to these days.

Assuming you didn't spend more than 2,000 dollars for that gun it is as close as you can expect to being correct.

Historically fruit woods, maple and walnut were used to build gun stocks.
In that order they are harder to easier to work the wood. In that same order they wood weighs more to less.

All of these have stable character once dry.

For the most part depending on which fruit wood passing maple, to walnut the grains is tighter to more open, walnut being the most open grain.

These things were taken into consideration back then, but I don't know if it is any more. So far as i can tell Pear and then Apple were the most common fruit woods, but there is not many surviving examples with in my reach to study.

I live in New Hampshire just down the road from Green Mountain Co and just up the road from TC Center, just incase that is interesting somehow.
 
Macmac:Can the Pedersoli be had in flint?
Actually no, only caplock, there's rumors for the future!
I know that actually in Pedersoli are working on a Win.1886 replica, and are on study other old cartiridge rifle like Martini-henry!
We must wait many times before to see a flintlock hawken from Pedersoli, and the real anwer is: May be!
ciao
Rusty
 
Thanks Rusty... If I could buy one of those in a full maple stock, meaning wood all the way to the muzzel and in flint, I would buy one.

I'ld like that in .58 cal too, and while I am dreaming a tapered barrel! :evil:
 
Mountain Jim- you can buy a long rear sight, reproduction of an original Hawken buckhorn with an elevator bar, from Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf; it's about 6" long, can be fit into a standard dovetail like that on the Lyman GPR, and moves the rear sight blade back about 5" closer to your eye. The placement of the rear sight on the current GPR is a nod to shooters whose eyes aren't perfect anymore.

Warren Center did an interview where he stated that the Hawken was a scaled-up version of a Pennsyvania-made squirrel rifle that he saw in a collection. One of his friends told him that his prototype rifle resembled a Hawken, so he went with that for a model name. Later he realized that it wasn't much of a Hawken "clone" at all, but the name was already in the catalog.

Macmac- the last Lyman I tore down had a coil mainspring, and looked like a knockoff of the T-C lock. That being said, they are very good locks.
 
AJumbo, Thanks good spark huh? In the 70's CVA and TC had heat treating problems leaving not good spark. The coil spring thing is just me being Traditional, the spark thing really matters.
 
cap locks

One of the systems not mentioned is the maynard tape priming,like a roll of caps.Not made today,but there is a load of history in the development of firearms.
I use a tc lock and due to pyrodex have a green mt 1:28 barrel for slugs.I really enjoy the .50 and have a mold for .54 maxi and no rifle;good excuse eh?
Has anyone used the lyman flint with the hunter barrel 1:32 I think?It's that or maybe a pedersoli,but would prefer to stay US made.I'm not knocking pedersoli,I have their fine sxs 20 and 10 ga shotguns,and love the look on peoples faces when you prove they work.
 
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